I guess I don't really understand heirloom tomatoes . . ?

[digitS']

I nearly high-jacked Marshall's new beans thread with this . . . but, didn't want to be rude.

First off, it is perfectly understandable that different varieties grow differently in different gardens. Maybe a gardener gains "true enlightenment" about that from growing heirlooms. But, here are a couple examples of what I mean by the title of this post:

Kimberley - (And, it is "Kimberley" and not "Kimberly" as is seen in some seed catalogs.) I got seed from Calgary, Alberta. That city probably isn't more than 100 miles from the little mountain community of Kimberley, B.C., where this variety was developed. However, Kimberley seems to be everywhere described as a 1 to 2 ounce tomato - a large cherry, but it isn't really a cherry. Well, the things didn't look much like cherries in my garden! In fact, they weren't anywhere near 1 to 2 ounces but rather a consistent 5 ounce tomato! Really, they were about the size of an Early Girl. Writing to the seed company didn't result in any explanation as to why they were so large.

Woodle Orange - The name sounds like it might describe a "woodle" tomato. Yep, that's what they are, little tomatoes - cute, little things! So, how big are these woodle, uh, little tomatoes? They are coming off the plants real good right now and, for a 2nd year, my plants are loaded! Almost none are larger than 3 ounces. How are they described in the seed catalogs? "Up to 1 pound." I don't get it - one variety that is about 3 times larger than it is supposed to be and one variety is less than 1 quarter size! And by the way, they aren't really orange . . . maybe an orangy red!

Then there is new-to-me Casey's Pure Yellow - my earliest 2012 beefsteak. I thought the 1st fruit was "kind of" yellow, altho' the interior was orange. Very pretty! However, the 2nd fruit was allowed to fully ripen . . . to a lovely orange! So, how is this a "Pure Yellow" when it is an orange tomato?

Last year, I had a Kellogg's Breakfast that was red . . . not orange! KB's are supposed to be orange! There were 2 plants marked with KB stickers in the garden. One was very early and red, one was late and orange! This year, I bought seed from a different source. Yes, they look like they will be kind of late and, yes, they look like they will go from kind of a yellow, to orange. Right now, they look like the 2nd plant in my garden last year. So, what am I to think of the "red Kellogg's Breakfast?" Altho' I didn't grow it in 2012, I saved the 2011 seed. I want to have an early, mild-flavored RED tomato in the garden! But, what is it? Could the seed have been contaminated and this isn't a real KB? If so, what is it and how will I ever really know??

Lastly, altho' if I continue growing heirlooms - I know it won't be the last unknown, there is my Grandmother's tomato. Her youngest child, my uncle who will be 85 this year, gave me the seed 20 years ago. He says she grew it during the Depression and up until she passed away. So, it is a "family heirloom." But, is it?

After I'd grown it about 10 years, I found a description of "Porter" in a seed catalog. That Texas heirloom from an old-time seed company by the same name sounded just like Grandma's tomato! I sent away for seed and for 2 years grew Porter side-by-side with Grandma's tomato. The plants look a little different but the fruits were virtually the same!! So, is this "family heirloom," a Porter?? How will I ever know?

I guess I don't really understand heirloom tomatoes . . .

Steve

 

[897tgigvib]

Wellp, welcome to the world of...

Bumblebees are not supposed to be able to fly because they are not shaped right...but they do.

Tomatoes are supposed to be 95% self pollinating, and seed companies are supposed to make sure you get what you purchase...

But different kinds of tomatoes have different rates of self pollination, and different fields of tomatoes have different conditions that affect that rate. Some tomatoes hide the stigma inside the anther cone, other varieties stick that stigma out. That's the kind that are most likely to get cross pollinatred by any bug. Some seed companies buy their seed from growers who grow 20 varieties of tomatoes on 10 acres, and then that grower sells most of that seed to the seed company, saves some for next year's crop, and repeats the process for years. If 5% are crosspollinated each year, who knows how many are crosspollinated with how many different varieties after 5 years, until finally the seed company says, here, use these fresh seeds...

I have found some seed companies are notoriously bad with purity control. I won't say which ones. But I will say which ones are very good to get true seed. Seed Saver's Exchange will get you good true to type seed, and I find they are very good at also giving good normal variations in their variety. Seems they select from some plants for excellence in some traits, and other plants for excellence with other traits. SSE seems best at it of all that I know about.

Tomato Growers' Supply is good about making sure you get the right variety. They do seem to be selected more tightly, but true to type, yes, far as my experience.

About heirloom variations: If the culture we live in did not have seed companies at all, we would of course save our own seed and trade with neighbors. After a few years, normal variations would happen. Selection is very real.

Selection happens.

But yes, we do have seed companies, and even good companies will select. After some years, Burpee's Kelloggs Breakfast will be a bit different than Johnny's. Burpee's might select mostly for crack free tomatoes and healthy plants, and Johnny's might select for the most productive plants. =====


About your uncle's tomato turning out to be a Porter probably, that is one of the ways heirlooms in families start. From a seed packet at the local general store. Heck, I saved seeds from a cluster tomato at a Safeway, which was probably an F1 hybrid of 2 similar tomatoes, and now I'm getting a darn good selection from it, much like the parent tomato F1. That's why I think the F1 was the result of crossing two similar lines.

My mother's mother grew Crimson Cushion. The seed did not get handed down successfully though. I will never have her exact selection of it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I agree with everything Marshall said. I've had Hillbilly tomatoes from one seed source be big and yellow with red marbling, which is about what they should look like. I've had seeds from another seed company (one mentioned on here a lot) produce smaller round orange tomatoes with a stripe of red through the base, not the marbling they should have. I strongly suspect that was a cross with something else. Two different plants from them produced the same type of small orange tomatoes.

But yes, we do have seed companies, and even good companies will select. After some years, Burpee's Kelloggs Breakfast will be a bit different than Johnny's. Burpee's might select mostly for crack free tomatoes and healthy plants, and Johnny's might select for the most productive plants. =====

You might look at the differences in the same variety of tomatoes as individual strains of that variety If you save your own seeds, you'll develop your own strain of that variety after a few generations. If you select wisely when you save those seeds, you will eventually develop a strain of that variety that does better in your location. And if you eventually give seeds away, they may become known as Digit's Heirloom.

Marshall, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that potato leaf tomatoes have the stigma a bit more exposed than the regular leaf, so they are a little more likely to be cross-pollinated. Not much but a little. I've also heard that the hot peppers expose the stigma more than the sweet peppers, so hot peppers are more likely to be cross-pollinated than sweet.

 

[897tgigvib]

The Potato Leaf Tomatoes sticking out their stigma is basically generally true. Someone will always find exceptions, and there are a good number of regular leaf varieties that stick the stigma out too, mostly the larger kinds. Again, someone will always find an exception.

I remember buying Golden Ponderosa seed and getting small sweet light yellow thin skinned round tomatoes instead of large beefsteak heavy skinned deep yellow tomatoes. But ya know, I liked it. I may well again order from that company more tomato seeds, get the crossed up tomatoes, and select my own varieties again. (So far so good with my anti gopher measures, but I know they circle my garden...to the tune of the music from that old shark movie...) Gophers are the reason I hide my few tomato plants in the middle of fort knox with the sonic devices around them.

 

[HotPepperQueen]

I completely agree, I don't understand heirlooms either! They are a tricky thing to figure out. They do taste fantastic and have a unique look to them, but the only one I grew that was tried and true to it's description was my Brandywine Pink. The Black Krims did terrible- almost a total flop except for the one perfect fruit that was ready for the county fair. The Big Rainbows produced a few HUGE fruits but not very many of them. The Mortgage Lifters were puney, I think I only got one that was over two pounds. My Black Cherries did okay, but started turning color a month later than what they should've. But then again, the Supersteaks and Roma Hybrids I ordered did terrible as well. I know the growing season has been bad this year for people growing tomatoes directly in the ground, raised beds did phenomenal. Maybe it's just the year, maybe it's my area, maybe it's my garden? Who knows! I still have gotten over 18 bushels of tomatoes from all these plants, but I feel like there were a lot of empty promises on those seed packets regarding yeilds and sizes. But ya know what? I'll still be growing them next year. My plant customers loved them and have had leaps more success than I have so I will continue to grow them until demand has gone down. And the fact that I sort of have a monopoly going because none of the other nurseries around here carry them

 

[digitS']

. . . The Black Krims did terrible- almost a total flop except for the one perfect fruit that was ready for the county fair. . .

There you've gone and done it, HPQ!

Now there will be all these people in the neighborhood who will want to grow Black Krims and that will go on until there is a "Central Minnesota Black Krim" . . . probably with a name that I couldn't even guess at here in mid-2012.



Steve

 

[Smiles Jr.]

I only grow heirloom tomatoes. My favorites are Mortgage Lifter, Brandywine, German Johnson, and Black Krim. Although the Black Krim are on the verge of being dropped as I have had three bad years in a row with them. I may replace them with some type of purple tomato. Since all heirlooms are open pollinated they are very vulnerable to cross pollination. This is the reason I have four tomato patches, one at each corner of our "yard" part of our property. This keeps the plants about a hundred yards apart. I think most of the identification issues as well as strange production with heirlooms is a cross pollination thing.

I know some heirloom folks who are very anal on minimizing cross pollination. I have one friend who plants each different type of tomato no less than 1 mile apart. One time, in a effort to get the most separation between types, he planted 30 Black Krim plants in a corner of his neighbors bean field near some trees and heavy underbrush. About 3/4 through the growing season we discovered that on the other side of the trees (about 50 ft. away) there was a house in a subdivision with lots of other types of heirloom tomatoes growing. My buddy would not harvest the seeds that year in an effort to keep "bloodlines" pure. Honeybees and other pollinators will easily cross pollinate an area of more than a mile radius.

 

[HotPepperQueen]

Haha! I was the only person to enter the heirloom division, too. So it looked REALLY good

. . . The Black Krims did terrible- almost a total flop except for the one perfect fruit that was ready for the county fair. . .

There you've gone and done it, HPQ!

Now there will be all these people in the neighborhood who will want to grow Black Krims and that will go on until there is a "Central Minnesota Black Krim" . . . probably with a name that I couldn't even guess at here in mid-2012.



Steve

 

[digitS']

. . . I have four tomato patches, one at each corner of our "yard" part of our property. This keeps the plants about a hundred yards apart. . .

Those 4 favorites could add up to four tomato patches -- a hundred yards apart?! That amounts to quite a good size homestead, Smilles! I hope you aren't mowing lawn grass between these four corners.

Thirty years ago, I'm not sure if I would have had even the glimmering of the understanding that I have today if someone had mentioned "heirloom tomatoes" but I was growing Large Red Cherry from the very beginning. The possibility of any other cherry tomato may have registered with me but I really thought that all cherries were one. I remember that I believed that cherries weren't really an early tomato but later learned that the lateness was only associated with my Large Red Cherry. It will make a huge bush. I grew it for years and didn't know that it was an heirloom.

An interest in heirlooms came about a few years after I began growing Grandma's tomato. That one, took up an important part of my tomato patch and did just fine. Besides, DW thinks it is wonderful . . . because it is so mild. It didn't even occur to me that it may cross with whatever else I was growing.

A few years ago, there was kind of an "unknown" large cherry where I thought I had planted one of Grandma's tomatoes. It produced well but, by then, I knew that tomatoes may cross-breed. (Her tomato has regular leaves and must be somewhat immune to crossing.) I didn't save any seeds from the odd cherry that showed up. In fact, I always have seed from the last 3 years for her tomatoes. If 1 or more of the 4 plants that I grew this year had shown a surprise characteristic, their seed can be ignored and I'll go with another plant or some of that old seed in next year's garden. I am no longer much concerned about losing it . . . unlike that nightmare moment when I first learned that tomatoes will cross, on their own.

heirloom digitS'
who only had seed saver's exchange seed once (from the planet natural company - watermelon seed, not 1 of which germinated!) but who buys from tomato growers' supply most every year. maybe, i should give sse another try.

 

[seedcorn]

First year with heirlooms. Better Boys splitting, Big Boys doing well, the heirlooms are just rotting before ripening. I have 6 different types from local man. Little meatier but I'll stick with my hybrids for main crop and play with heirlooms