Tomato Questions

[CJW]

Hi! I have been searching for the answer to my questions, and it has been exhausting! You are all full of knowledge, so I figure I would stop searching and start asking!

1. I am planning on planting 3 different varieties of tomatoes. (Amish Paste, Sun Gold Cherry, and Cherokee Purple) I am going to be building vertical trellises for them (after searching this site and gaining valuable information! Thank you!).

Can they be planted next to each other...(ie: AP SG CP AP SG CP) or should I put something between them like cucumbers (ie: AP c SG c CP)? I would like to save my seeds, and I don't know how easy they would cross pollinate. We do get wind on a regular basis.

2. I use quite a bit of paste/sauce during the year. We all (My husband and I and our 2 growing boys) have healthy appetites. If I use about 6 cans of sauce a week and I want to be able to grow a good portion of that sauce for the next year, what would be a good estimate as to how many plants I should plant to allow a good crop? I am pretty sure I can give away any extra, if I need to.

I know there are many variables as far as yield goes, but I hear the Amish Paste make a great sauce/paste, and I would prefer the indeterminate vs the determinate Roma.

3. I have read many different things regarding watering. My intention is to set up a drip line, that is connected to a raised rain barrel (that can also be connected to the house faucet). Some places say 1 gallon every day, some say every other day, some 2 times a week. I would rather do a little every day, then a bunch 2-3 times a week.


Thank you in advance for your input!

 

[Ridgerunner]

I'll start this one.

1. I am planning on planting 3 different varieties of tomatoes. (Amish Paste, Sun Gold Cherry, and Cherokee Purple) I am going to be building vertical trellises for them (after searching this site and gaining valuable information! Thank you!).

Can they be planted next to each other...(ie: AP SG CP AP SG CP) or should I put something between them like cucumbers (ie: AP c SG c CP)? I would like to save my seeds, and I don't know how easy they would cross pollinate. We do get wind on a regular basis.

I am not familiar with the Sungold Cherry. When I Googled them, I came up that they are hybrid. Did I find the right one or do you have an heirloom variety. If they are hybrid, they will not come true from seeds. In would not save them.

As far as planting them together. Tomatoes have perfect flowers. That means both the male and female parts are in the same blossom and that one flower can pollinate itself. The wind can shake the pollen loose and pollinate. No bees or other insects required.

Bees and other insects can cross-pollinate them however. All it takes is for them to visit one flower and go to the next plant. Bees can travel over a mile from the hive, looking for nectar. No matter how far apart you put them in your garden, it will be possible for bees to cross-pollinate the different varieties. The further apart they are, the less likely it is to happen, however it is always possible.

There is a difference in possible and probable. Usually a tomato will self-pollinate, which means the seeds are usually true. I save seeds without doing anything special and almost always get true seeds. Last year one of my Japanese Blacks produced a tomato that had little in common with a Japanese Black, so I can't say I am always 100% successful, but that successful percentage is way up there. My other Japanese Black did produce true.

I'd suggest planting the varieties in groups. Don't mix them any more than you have to but don't worry about them being in proximity. If you are really concerned, cover a branch of the tomato plant with netting to keep insects out and shake that branch when the flowers open. That way you are pretty darn sure the tomato seeds will be true.

 

[boggybranch]

Interesting link on tomato self-pollination.

http://www.pollinator.com/self_pollinating_tomato.htm

 

[lesa]

Good for you, planning ahead!! Six jars of sauce a week, is a lot of tomato plants and a whole lot of canning! I don't mean to discourage you, but unless you have a lot of land to devote to this, you will probably be supplementing your sauce with homegrown... I had around 60 plants last year and only ended up with 23 quarts of sauce... I had some issues with late blight, etc.
Have you planted tomatoes before? Keep us posted on your progress!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Boggy, a few more excerpts from various sources. That cat-faced comment was interesting. Timing for best pollination was something I had not seen before either. I did not copy it here, but one site recommended using a leaf blower. That sounds easier than a mechanical shaker.

This one is about greenhouse tomatoes.

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/ghtomato.html#pollination
Tomato plants have both male and female reproductive organs on the same flower, so with a little help, each flower can self-pollinate. In the natural environment, wind and insects pollinate tomatoes. In a greenhouse environment, more attention must be paid to the pollination process to ensure maximum fruit set. Today, tomatoes are pollinated in greenhouses either by bumblebees or by mechanical pollinators.

Mechanical pollination is done with a battery-powered, hand-held pollinator or by electric vibrating benches. The hand-held pollinators are labor-intensive. Workers have to hand pollinate each plant two or three days each week during flowering. Vibration benches work on an automatic timer and do not require much labor after installation, but they are expensive and not cost-effective for small- to medium-scale growers.

Mechanical pollination of tomatoes was predominant in U.S. and Canadian greenhouses until the mid-90s, when the use of bumblebees was adopted from European growers. Today, most greenhouse tomato growers in North America are using bumblebees, which work every day of the week, selecting only the flowers that are ready to pollinate. Bumblebees can pollinate up to 30 flowers a minute. It is not unusual to have 100% pollination, which results in higher yields than are achieved with mechanical methods

This one is outdoor gardens in Washington State.

http://gardening.wsu.edu/library/vege016/vege016.htm
Tomato flowers come complete with both male and female organs and are self-fertilizing. Pollen is shed with great abundance between 10:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. on dry, sunny days. Normally, the wind will pollinate the flower sufficiently. To ensure better pollination, gently shake or vibrate the entire tomato plant. The best time to do this is midday when it's warm, and the humidity is low. Optimum fruit set occurs within a very narrow night temperature range of between 60 F and 70 F. When tomato plants experience night temperatures lower than 55 F or above 75 F, interference with the growth of pollen tubes prevents normal fertilization. The pollen may even become sterile, thus causing the blossoms to drop. High daytime temperatures, rain, or prolonged humid conditions also hamper good fruit set. If the humidity is too low, the pollen will be too dry and will not adhere to the stigma. If the humidity is too high, the pollen will not shed readily. Pollen grains may then stick together, resulting in poor or nonexistent pollination.
Have you ever wondered why large-fruited tomato cultivars are sometimes "catfaced" but not the small-fruited ones? This is due to a failure of complete fertilization of the ovule. The larger fruit demands more complete fertilization. This is not a disease but a physiological disorder.

Another one on greenhouse tomatoes from the Kentucky Extension service.

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/HLA/anderson/gh_tom.htm
Tomato flowers must be pollinated in order to get fruit set and fruit development. Traditionally, flower clusters are shaken manually with a tomato flower pollinator as soon as the yellow petals open. Pollination must be done every day, seven days a week, usually between 9 a.m. and 1 p.m. Bumblebees are available from insect companies for pollination as well. Simply purchase a box or hive of bees and place them in the greenhouse when tomato flowers open. The bees do a very good job, just be careful to protect the bees from pesticide applications. In the 1995 and 1996 UK trials, we deliberately did not make a special effort to pollinate the flowers by hand or with purchased bees. We left the greenhouse sidewalls open during the day and feral (native) bees and the wind were responsible for pollination and the fruit yields described above. Additionally, we did not use pesticides while flowers were open. We cannot recommend that all pollination can be done this way, but it was reasonably successful during our trials.

I had about half the plants Lesa had and got about the same amount of canned tomato product, but some of mine was cooked down to sauce, some was puree, and some was canned tomatoes. It takes a lot more tomatoes to make a pint of sauce than a pint of canned tomatoes. Like Lesa, I did not consider it a good year from tomato production, mine being more weather related than anything else.

Editted because of lousy proof reading.

 

[digitS']

CJ, you are getting good information. I'll just toss in stuff and hope it is of some use. Personal experience on yield of those varieties would probably be the most helpful but I haven't grown one of them.

I do have experience saving seed from my grandmother's tomato over about 20 seasons now. At first, I wasn't even aware that tomatoes could cross pollinate. Now, I'm getting more concerned that I'll have problems with grandmother's tomato. I always save seed from more than 1 plant and have room for a number of plants each season and, honestly, have not seen a change once in all these years.

Varieties are different, however. I'm amazed at the discussions of variations within cultivars by those folks who have lots of heirlooms each year. Potato leafed varieties seem to be the most willing to cross - I mean, that's how we got all these different varieties of Brandwine, for example.

Also, I recently learned that there are some tomato cultivars that are inclined to have exposed stamens. In other words, pollen is produced outside of those closed up little flowers characteristic of most tomatoes.

It may be the safest advice to buy seed from a reputable outfit if you only have a few plants, each year. After all, a packet of 30 seeds may last you several years.

Yield? I just looked thru some Cooperative Extension sites. Choice of variety makes a difference. Staking, caging, trellising - space between plants - all that makes a difference. Take a look at this University of Missouri "ballpark" table. Depending on growing factors, they've got 8 to 20 pounds per plant. That's one big plant with 20 pounds! Elsewhere, North Carolina State gave figures that work out to 6 pounds per plant. Montana State has 15 pounds per 10' row with spacing that would amount to 3 plants. I think those numbers may be a little too conservative. I don't grow paste tomatoes and have no idea how they cook down from fresh, pound-wise.

Water? I am a big believer of deep watering and then allowing the surface of the soil to dry. If the surface is moist for long periods of time, the plant roots are all in that area. Even just a day or 2 without water may stress the plants and even kill them with such shallow roots.

Anyway, that is my 2's, or 1, or 3/4 of a .

Steve

 

[curly_kate]

Definitely water a whole lot at one time. An inch per week is what I've been told is ideal. The drip irrigation is a great idea, since it will keep water from splashing dirt on to the leaves and infecting your plants with blight.

 

[CJW]

Awesome, awesome, awesome. I knew you all would give me loads to digest!

Some points/answers:

~I am going to be ordering an organic sungold. I am not a raw tomato eater. My husband and 2 boys are, so that is why I am getting them. These seem to be the sweetest ones, so maybe I will try a couple! I will have to do more reading regarding hybrids. I know it has been done for decades, but I guess I hadn't looked into the history.

~Could anyone suggest an heirloom cherry that is really sweet? I don't mind not being able to save those seeds, its more of the amish paste and cherokee purple.

~I have not planted tomatoes before. (So now you all think i am nuts!) It is one of the things I have been afraid to grow, since I don't like them. But, I am committed to put in as much work as I can (and will ask for help, if needed!) to provide for our family.

~60 plants will be way more than I can do, mostly because I will be having trellises, and I cant afford to put up that many. I have the room to do that much, but it will be a stretch.

~I have set out a basic layout and it looks as though I will have a total of 18-20 plants with about half of them being the Amish Paste. I think that will be a good number to start with.

~All of the self pollinating pointers and links are awesome. I will be going over them and over them!

~I was looking at the "ballpark" figures from the link from Missouri, and I am curious why a trellised tomato would produce less than a caged one. Any guesses? Even the "down" option, which I would guess it is just letting them go hog wild with no stakes or anything produces more, supposedly. Odd.

~As for the drip line, I was planning on using mulch, but if the top of the soil is supposed to dry, maybe I wont. I was going to plan on at least a gallon in one hour per plant-every other day, if needed. I am going to deep dig them when I set them out, so I am hoping the roots will grow deep. I will also put them on a separate drip line so that I can monitor the soil as compared to my other plants. I am not sure what 1 inch would equate to in gallons. This is probably my most important crop as far as reducing costs in our house.

Thank you all again for the awesome input, and keep it coming if you wish!

 

[journey11]

~As for the drip line, I was planning on using mulch, but if the top of the soil is supposed to dry, maybe I wont. I was going to plan on at least a gallon in one hour per plant-every other day, if needed.

This sounds like it might be too much watering to me? I don't know exactly what I give mine in gal., but I only water once a week (if it hasn't already rained) and just water them deeply. You do want to mulch, once the soil has warmed up, because mulching will help keep the moisture consistent. Your tomatoes can have a number of problems in fruiting if overwatered or underwatered.

If you don't have space/resources to grow enough canning tomatoes, another good and more affordable option is to locate a U-pick and buy a few bushels. I have gotten them over in Ohio for $5 a bushel which is cheaper than growing them yourself anyway. Look around the end of July/beginning of August for those U-picks to open.

 

[Ridgerunner]

~I was looking at the "ballpark" figures from the link from Missouri, and I am curious why a trellised tomato would produce less than a caged one. Any guesses? Even the "down" option, which I would guess it is just letting them go hog wild with no stakes or anything produces more, supposedly. Odd.

With the cages you are growing them in three dimensions. With a trellis, you are growing them in two dimensions. You have to do more pruning because there is not enough room for all the suckers and shoots to grow on a two dimensioned trellis. You get more plant to produce tomatoes with the cage method. You'll notice the difference in width between rows for those two methods. As far as the down option, you are also using three dimensions instead of two, but look at the wastage. You get better quality tomatoes if they are up off the ground. They produce more but you don't harvest more. Trellissed or caged tomatoes are easier to harvest too even if you don't have a bad back or blown out knees.

One advantage to mulching and disadvantage to the down option is that certain diseases live in many soils. If the rain or water knocks that soil up on the plant and it has disease in it, that disease will infect your plant. Down tomatoes are even more susceptible. And mulch really helps keep your soil evenly moist. It doesn't need to dry out, it just doesn't need to be soggy wet. Damp enough to keep the roots working but dry enough so the roots don't drown and you have it about right. Too much alternating between wet and dry can be a problem. Mulch helps with that.

Another thing to consider is your climate. You are in Montana. Many of us are further south and have a longer growing season. Digits is probably one of the best ones of us to answer this because of where he lives, but you might want determinate instead of indeterminate varieties. Indeterminate tomatoes tend to produce all season long and grow taller than the determinate ones, but the determinate ones tend to produce a majority of their tomatoes in a fairly short span, say about a two week span. At your altitude, in a relatively short growing season, and since you are mostly interested in canning instead of eating raw, maybe someone with a similar growing season can mention a preference for determinate or indeterminate.