2021 Little Easy Bean Network - Bean Lovers Come Discover Something New !

Zeedman

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How much do you folks pay attention to isolation distances when you're saving beans for replanting or sharing with the bean network? I used to pay very little attention but we have a lot of bumble bees and I started ending up with more and more out crosses. Now I think I've gone too far in the other direction and don't grow varieties that I'm saving anywhere near each other. I'm guessing there's a happy medium :)
This question comes up fairly often on garden forums, and you will likely get a lot of different answers. The funny thing is that depending upon where & how the beans are grown, and the pollinators present, there can be more than one "right" answer. Some can grow different beans side-by-side with little to no crossing, but IMO that should not be assumed to be the norm.

Bumblebees are very active in my garden (there are nests on the property) so absent some form of isolation, crossing between two varieties of ANY species is likely. As an SSE member, I am growing beans to share, and some of those could not be easily replaced, if at all... so I probably use more separation than most here.

For seed saving of some self-pollinating crops (including beans & tomatoes) I utilize a combination of distance & barrier crops, as suggested by Dr. Jeff McCormack (of Southern Exposure Seed Exchange). Most of my beans are pole varieties; I plant them 20-30' apart, with trellises of other plants between. Trellises of limas, runner beans, cucumbers, and bitter melon make good barriers; I can only grow one of each species for seed saving, but may use 2-3 rows of the same variety in different locations. Fortunately we have friends who will gladly take all of that extra bitter melon. ;) Trellises of yardlong beans or climbing cowpeas too... but the beans are isolation for them, (rather than the other way around) since they tend to bloom too late to protect the beans.

Pollen-rich flowers are also helpful between rows. At present, I use Zebrina flowering mallow, sunflowers, okra, or squash for that purpose. In the past, I've used cosmos & cleome, both of which self-seeded (as does the Zebrina currently). Unlike honeybees (which tend to follow a row of the same species) bumblebees work their way across the garden... so giving them places to "wipe their feet" reduces the amount of pollen they transfer row-to-row.

In practical terms, this means that I divide my gardens into zones, with only one bean (and one tomato) per zone. I also use a set of large pots along my front sidewalk, for irreplaceable beans that need extra isolation & TLC. This isolation strategy limits me to only 11-12 varieties per year (after our recent downsizing) but I've only observed 4-5 crosses in the last 15 years.

As @Bluejay77 mentioned, some varieties are more prone to crossing. Of the varieties I've grown, "Ma Williams" (a.k.a. Goose) and "Jimenez" fall in that category. I've had 2 crosses appear in "Ma Williams", and other gardeners have reported similar promiscuity in "Goose". A sample of "Jimenez" sent to me in trade one year was so heavily crossed, that hardly any of the 10 plants was the same, and the entire seed lot had to be discarded. :ep An SSE friend has reported heavy crossing in some of their greasy beans.

Aside from distance & barriers, there are a few other ways to reduce the chance of crossing in saved seed. One of those is time isolation. Bush beans tend to flower earlier than pole beans; so if planted closely, you could save the first seed from the bush beans, the last seed from the pole beans, and both would likely be reasonably pure. You could also use what I would call "crowd" isolation... planting multiple small rows in lieu of one long row, and saving seed only from the center.

Last but not least, for the most irreplaceable heirlooms, you could bag a few blossoms. Bagging is the only way to be 100% certain of pure seed, if multiple varieties are grown in close proximity. The material used should allow free air flow, but be tight enough to exclude bees or other pollinators. The small mesh bags sold in craft shops work well, as do cut & tied pieces of floating row cover. I would not recommend covering beans completely with row cover. When I tried that with bush beans one year, they did not respond well... the plants became yellowed & sickly, and the cover had to be removed.

All of the above assumes that the purity of the saved seed matters; that seed will be shared with others as a named variety, or that the variety(s) being saved are rare and/or irreplaceable. If seed is being saved only for your own use, the small degree of crossing which may occur is nothing more than a mild inconvenience.
 
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Blue-Jay

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Seed Swap Saturday October 2, 2021 At Teneesee Tech Facility in Livingston, Tennessee. 925 Deck Cove Road.
Some of the other fun stuff to see was the Greenhouses and what Tennessee Tech had inside of them.

Greenhouse 2.jpg

Greenhouses.jpg


They grow beans and tomatoes inside the greenhouses. They sell beans on a website. I think it's tenneseetech.com
Beans In the Greenhouse #1.jpg


Pretty neat the way the beans are grown in some kind of dry medium and watered with a nutrient in the water that drips through a valve into this growing medium where the plant can root itself.
Beans Growing In Potting Mix.jpg


Beans drying in another part of the greenhouse.
Beans Drying In Greenhouse.jpg


Pods on these plants develop to full size.
Greasy Bean Drying.jpg


They grow and sell a lot of Greasy bean varieties.
Pods Drying In Greenhouse.jpg
 

Blue-Jay

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Seed Swap Saturday October 2, 2021 At Teneesee Tech Facility in Livingston, Tennessee. 925 Deck Cove Road.

They can house quite a few long rows of beans in their greenhouses.
Rows Of Beans In Greenhouse.jpg


On this day they had the greenhouse open on one side so everything didn't overheat.
Cooling the beans.jpg

Keeping the beans Cool.jpg


They also had a section of the greenhouse where they have some new young beans started. They might do this all year round.
New Beans Growing.jpg

The section where they grew tomatoes this year was finished growing. The tomatoes looked pretty dried out.
Tomatoes are Done For The Season.jpg

Tomato Drying.jpg
 

Blue-Jay

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Seed Swap Saturday October 2, 2021 At Teneesee Tech Facility in Livingston, Tennessee. 925 Deck Cove Road.

Out behind their greenhouses they grow some rows of beans in a field.
Rows of Beans Growing in their field.jpg


Pole Beans supported on netting. Actually the beans growing inside the greenhouse looked better.
Beans Growing On Netting. .jpg


They also had some Lima beans growing outside that looked pretty good.
Lima Bean Row.jpg
 

heirloomgal

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@heirloomgal I grew out some of Russ' Vaquero beans this year as well and here's what mine look like. I'm also attaching a screen shot of the last soil tests I had done in that garden, though the results are two or three years old now.


View attachment 44167View attachment 44168
Those beans look great! So much more colourful than mine came out! I'm going to try them again next season and see what happens with the pattern. Looks like you had a big crop. I've never seen a soil sample print up before as you've posted. Looks like your values for zinc are high, which is good, because as far as I know that is one of the most important micro nutrients for beans.

And welcome to TEG and LEBN, always nice to have new folks join in!
 
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jbosmith

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This question comes up fairly often on garden forums, and you will likely get a lot of different answers. The funny thing is that depending upon where & how the beans are grown, and the pollinators present, there can be more than one "right" answer. Some can grow different beans side-by-side with little to no crossing, but IMO that should not be assumed to be the norm.

Bumblebees are very active in my garden (there are nests on the property) so absent some form of isolation, crossing between two varieties of ANY species is likely. As an SSE member, I am growing beans to share, and some of those could not be easily replaced, if at all... so I probably use more separation than most here.

For seed saving of some self-pollinating crops (including beans & tomatoes) I utilize a combination of distance & barrier crops, as suggested by Dr. Jeff McCormack (of Southern Exposure Seed Exchange). Most of my beans are pole varieties; I plant them 20-30' apart, with trellises of other plants between. Trellises of limas, runner beans, cucumbers, and bitter melon make good barriers; I can only grow one of each species for seed saving, but may use 2-3 rows of the same variety in different locations. Fortunately we have friends who will gladly take all of that extra bitter melon. ;) Trellises of yardlong beans or climbing cowpeas too... but the beans are isolation for them, (rather than the other way around) since they tend to bloom too late to protect the beans.

Pollen-rich flowers are also helpful between rows. At present, I use Zebrina flowering mallow, sunflowers, okra, or squash for that purpose. In the past, I've used cosmos & cleome, both of which self-seeded (as does the Zebrina currently). Unlike honeybees (which tend to follow a row of the same species) bumblebees work their way across the garden... so giving them places to "wipe their feet" reduces the amount of pollen they transfer row-to-row.

In practical terms, this means that I divide my gardens into zones, with only one bean (and one tomato) per zone. I also use a set of large pots along my front sidewalk, for irreplaceable beans that need extra isolation & TLC. This isolation strategy limits me to only 11-12 varieties per year (after our recent downsizing) but I've only observed 4-5 crosses in the last 15 years.

As @Bluejay77 mentioned, some varieties are more prone to crossing. Of the varieties I've grown, "Ma Williams" (a.k.a. Goose) and "Jimenez" fall in that category. I've had 2 crosses appear in "Ma Williams", and other gardeners have reported similar promiscuity in "Goose". A sample of "Jimenez" sent to me in trade one year was so heavily crossed, that hardly any of the 10 plants was the same, and the entire seed lot had to be discarded. :ep An SSE friend has reported heavy crossing in some of their greasy beans.

Aside from distance & barriers, there are a few other ways to reduce the chance of crossing in saved seed. One of those is time isolation. Bush beans tend to flower earlier than pole beans; so if planted closely, you could save the first seed from the bush beans, the last seed from the pole beans, and both would likely be reasonably pure. You could also use what I would call "crowd" isolation... planting multiple small rows in lieu of one long row, and saving seed only from the center.

Last but not least, for the most irreplaceable heirlooms, you could bag a few blossoms. Bagging is the only way to be 100% certain of pure seed, if multiple varieties are grown in close proximity. The material used should allow free air flow, but be tight enough to exclude bees or other pollinators. The small mesh bags sold in craft shops work well, as do cut & tied pieces of floating row cover. I would not recommend covering beans completely with row cover. When I tried that with bush beans one year, they did not respond well... the plants became yellowed & sickly, and the cover had to be removed.

All of the above assumes that the purity of the saved seed matters; that seed will be shared with others as a named variety, or that the variety(s) being saved are rare and/or irreplaceable. If seed is being saved only for your own use, the small degree of crossing which may occur is nothing more than a mild inconvenience.
This mostly mirrors my own thoughts as I have a few varieties that I can't replace and I'm definitely pretty careful with those. I also have seeds from multiple grow-outs saved, just in case. Then there's some varieties, like Chester, that I like to grow but can get any time I want, so I grow those in a community garden without thought to isolation.

Thanks all!
 

jbosmith

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Those beans look great! So much more colourful than mine came out! I'm going to try them again next season and see what happens with the pattern. Looks like you had a big crop. I've never seen a soil sample print up before as you've posted. Looks like your values for zinc are high, which is good, because as far as I know that is one of the most important micro nutrients for beans.
That chart is just the USDA state tests. I'm not sure if Ontario does something similar but I'd guess so with all the beautiful farm land over there.

The nutrients in that garden are pretty out of control. I did a deep, deep lasagna bed there back in 2004 or 2005 and I think it'll be generations before it needs much added. The phosphorus values on that printout kind of scare me and I think it's because I used a lot of sileage when I did the lasagna.

I bet the difference is environmental, either with soil numbers, temperature, or some other variable. This garden is in USDA zone 3B, not far from the Eastern Townships of Quebec so it rarely gets above 85F. They also had some shade from an overzealous neighbor (Tonawanda).

I have one variety, Black Turtle Peas from SSE's exchange listings, that can grow completely different from year to year. You know how sometimes a bean that's normally white with red lines will 'reverse'? These whole plants do that - with reddish leaves, etc. on a high number of the plants. Grown elsewhere or in a different year, the same batch of beans will have very little of that.
 

heirloomgal

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That chart is just the USDA state tests. I'm not sure if Ontario does something similar but I'd guess so with all the beautiful farm land over there.

The nutrients in that garden are pretty out of control. I did a deep, deep lasagna bed there back in 2004 or 2005 and I think it'll be generations before it needs much added. The phosphorus values on that printout kind of scare me and I think it's because I used a lot of sileage when I did the lasagna.

I bet the difference is environmental, either with soil numbers, temperature, or some other variable. This garden is in USDA zone 3B, not far from the Eastern Townships of Quebec so it rarely gets above 85F. They also had some shade from an overzealous neighbor (Tonawanda).

I have one variety, Black Turtle Peas from SSE's exchange listings, that can grow completely different from year to year. You know how sometimes a bean that's normally white with red lines will 'reverse'? These whole plants do that - with reddish leaves, etc. on a high number of the plants. Grown elsewhere or in a different year, the same batch of beans will have very little of that.
The funny thing about those Vaquero beans switching up on me to mostly white with a blackish splotch, is I chose them for the beautiful pattern 🤣 Nature has a sense of humour I guess. Many years ago I lived for awhile in the Eastern Township of Waterville, and spend much free time in North Hatley, Sherbrooke, Lennoxville. So beautiful, that whole area. I regret so much now that I never made of point of getting to Vermont or Maine. Ah, the short sightedness of youth.
 

jbosmith

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Chester/Skunk are super pretty in a similar way. Chester is also a town that's close to where I grow up so it's a bonus for me that they're pretty!

I spend a lot of time in Newport, VT just on the other side of the border. Pre-covid I used to cross so often that I got a Nexus card to make it easier to go get Humm hummus and canning supplies at Canadian Tire. 🙃
 
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