2022 Little Easy Bean Network - We Are Beans Without Borders

[Blue-Jay]

@Bluejay77
I was reading about some of the Italian beans you have on your website, the Sarconi beans in particular. What a special group of beans you have there. I didn't realize that 'Sarconi' was a reference to an area of Italy. I assumed it was just a company name.

Since you asked about the Sarconi beans listed on the website. I asked the person that I obtained them from what was the origin of these beans they had sent to me. Below is from this growers email that I received this morning.

The Sarconi beans come from a company that produces dry beans in Italy
that is called Sarconi. I have sorted through some packages of them and
kept the most interesting and also tried to grow them. I am sure that
some were outcrosses - there was just a single bean of that type in 2kg.
I don´t think that they care if everything in a mixed bean package is
true to type. Some were heavy yielders, some weren´t.

So the grower got them from packages of mixed beans which you can grow or make soup with them and they could originate from maybe anywhere in Italy. They might not even be authentic Sarconi landrace beans.

 

[jbosmith]

Some observations on 3 similar looking beans: @jbosmith

Johnson: large, plump ovoid

Gross Brother's Vermont Cranberry: less than half the size of Johnson, also a bit plump but less than Johnson

King of the Early: about half the size of Johnson; larger and more elongated than Gross Bros. Has a thin/flat profile more like a pinto

Interesting! Thanks for sharing. I've never done a side by side comparison, though now that you mention it, Johnson is a pretty big bean. Also this post well timed because I was eating a jar of Johnson beans for lunch

 

[Ridgerunner]

If I may, I would like to go back to bean genetics and out crosses for a moment please. This past summer I grew a few bush snap beans of 'Tanya's Pink Pod'. One of the plants was an overachiever, and started reaching for the sky-- so I gave it a pole and it climbed a good 10'. The pods on the tall plant were pink and very much resembled those of the bush plants, but when I threshed the pods at the end of the season the beans from the tall plant were different from those of the low form in both shape and colour. Tanya's Pink Pod has light tan coloured kidney-shaped beans, and the pole bean version that I grew had pinkish beans that were more rounded (I am going by memory on the exact shape, as all of my dry beans are in the freezer at the moment due to what I will refer to as 'the weevil incident'). If I have @Ridgerunner correct, Bean A would have crossed with Bean B, and that outcross would have gone unnoticed by the grower as from the outside the seed coat would have looked typical in all ways when it was harvested. The grower then sold the seed to me, I planted it, and I end up with one AB pole bean plant in a patch of AA bush beans.

Up to this point, that's almost certainly what happened.

And is this where the fun starts, with a bit of a coin toss in terms of what the next generation might hold for these AB pole bean seeds?

It is a tremendous coin toss. You only had one plant from the outcross and all beans on that one plant would be the same. But when you grow them next year each individual bean you plant could easily produce something that looks totally different. Each one could be the start of a new variety. Or they could all produce something that looks exactly alike. That happens too.

And when you say 'revert' does that suggest that when I plant the seeds from the AB pole-version the new recruits could revert right back to having their original AA bush habit, and there the story would end?

The way I understand it the pole bean genetics are dominant over the bush growth habit. That means the first outcross that you had nothing to do with had to be with a pole bean. You are dealing with gene pairs, not individual genes. So that lone pole plant had to be split at that gene pair, one bush gene and one pole gene. Pole being dominant it grew as a pole. Due to the randomness of how genes are passed down at a gene pair when they are split, it is possible the next generation you plant next year can have some pole beans and some bush beans. If two recessive bush genes pair up that plant will be a bush. Since it is then "pure" for the bush genes (pure means they are both the same) any beans grown from those in the future will be bush. Theoretically the odds of that are 25%. If two pole beans pair up, another 25% chance, then every bean grown from those in the future will be pole. But if one pole and one bush gene is passed down, a 50% chance, it will grow as a pole but future generations could produce a bush variant. You cannot tell by looking if the pole versions are pure for the pole genes or is split with one of each.

Your scenario happened to me. I bought some seeds for Blue Jay bush snap bean. I noticed one plant in the row had a climbing growth habit but I was not clever enough to stake it as you did. When I harvested the dried bean for seed and as dried beans I saved three solid black seeds instead of the typical Blue Jay pattern/color. When I planted those three seeds each produced a vigorous pole bean but each had different colors/patterns. Each was a new segregation. When I planted those segregations I again got various segregations, mostly pole but an occasional bush started showing up.

 

[Branching Out]

interesting link to think about, it may be out of date, but gives some idea of how complicated seed coats, patterns and colors can be.

Bean Genes

The mysterious black beans continued to play on my mind last week. Two things still needed more clarification. First was the question of origin of my purported Gramma Walters variety, and the sec…

squashpractice.com

there is an interesting example and discussion and also some references for further reading.

Up to this point, that's almost certainly what happened.


It is a tremendous coin toss. You only had one plant from the outcross and all beans on that one plant would be the same. But when you grow them next year each individual bean you plant could easily produce something that looks totally different. Each one could be the start of a new variety. Or they could all produce something that looks exactly alike. That happens too.


The way I understand it the pole bean genetics are dominant over the bush growth habit. That means the first outcross that you had nothing to do with had to be with a pole bean. You are dealing with gene pairs, not individual genes. So that lone pole plant had to be split at that gene pair, one bush gene and one pole gene. Pole being dominant it grew as a pole. Due to the randomness of how genes are passed down at a gene pair when they are split, it is possible the next generation you plant next year can have some pole beans and some bush beans. If two recessive bush genes pair up that plant will be a bush. Since it is then "pure" for the bush genes (pure means they are both the same) any beans grown from those in the future will be bush. Theoretically the odds of that are 25%. If two pole beans pair up, another 25% chance, then every bean grown from those in the future will be pole. But if one pole and one bush gene is passed down, a 50% chance, it will grow as a pole but future generations could produce a bush variant. You cannot tell by looking if the pole versions are pure for the pole genes or is split with one of each.

Your scenario happened to me. I bought some seeds for Blue Jay bush snap bean. I noticed one plant in the row had a climbing growth habit but I was not clever enough to stake it as you did. When I harvested the dried bean for seed and as dried beans I saved three solid black seeds instead of the typical Blue Jay pattern/color. When I planted those three seeds each produced a vigorous pole bean but each had different colors/patterns. Each was a new segregation. When I planted those segregations I again got various segregations, mostly pole but an occasional bush started showing up.

 

[heirloomgal]

If I may, I would like to go back to bean genetics and out crosses for a moment please. This past summer I grew a few bush snap beans of 'Tanya's Pink Pod'. One of the plants was an overachiever, and started reaching for the sky-- so I gave it a pole and it climbed a good 10'. The pods on the tall plant were pink and very much resembled those of the bush plants, but when I threshed the pods at the end of the season the beans from the tall plant were different from those of the low form in both shape and colour. Tanya's Pink Pod has light tan coloured kidney-shaped beans, and the pole bean version that I grew had pinkish beans that were more rounded (I am going by memory on the exact shape, as all of my dry beans are in the freezer at the moment due to what I will refer to as 'the weevil incident'). If I have @Ridgerunner correct, Bean A would have crossed with Bean B, and that outcross would have gone unnoticed by the grower as from the outside the seed coat would have looked typical in all ways when it was harvested. The grower then sold the seed to me, I planted it, and I end up with one AB pole bean plant in a patch of AA bush beans. And is this where the fun starts, with a bit of a coin toss in terms of what the next generation might hold for these AB pole bean seeds? And when you say 'revert' does that suggest that when I plant the seeds from the AB pole-version the new recruits could revert right back to having their original AA bush habit, and there the story would end?

If you manage to stabilize a pole version of Tanya's Pink Pod @Branching Out ...I'll faint! That is such a fantastic bean variety, and a pole version would be even better!

 

[Branching Out]

You have a very clear way of explaining things-- thank you. I love the idea of growing them all out to see what bean colours and plant forms come of it, and I plan to grow out as many as I have space for next summer just to satisfy my own curiosity. Like Gary Rondeau in the 'Bean Gene' article I am fascinated by this process. However with the amount of seeds that I saved from just one plant and factoring in exponential growth of future generations, I would imagine that this bean patch could in theory take over my entire yard within just a few years. Lol. Growing out a few of them each year would be much more manageable, but would of course take a very long time. It is too bad that beans have such a long season of growth; being able to grow out even two generations per year would be so much more efficient.

 

[meadow]

If you manage to stabilize a pole version of Tanya's Pink Pod @Branching Out ...I'll faint! That is such a fantastic bean variety, and a pole version would be even better!

I found this comment by Mike Reeske interesting (a farmer working with UC Davis on the UC Rio Zape bean):

"...the Rio Zape is crossed with a white bean, the Matterhorn, which contains the resistant I gene. The plant is grown to maturity, producing what is called the F1 hybrid seed. The hybrid seed (all brown) looks quite different from the original Rio Zape seed (purple with black stripes), but now contains the I gene. This process is repeated six more times. With each generation of back-crossing to the heirloom parent, more heirloom seed characteristics are recovered. To regain all of the original qualities of the Rio Zape bean, the hybrid seeds are planted, and their pollen is used to cross-pollinate a normal Rio Zape parent." [resulting in 99.6% of the qualities of the original Rio Zape, but also resistant to BCMV.]

He also responded to someone asking if Anazapi (accidental cross between Anasazi and Rio Zape) was suitable to grow in their particular climate. He said that Rio Zape was from the mountainous foothills of Northern Mexico, and that Anazapi needs 90-100 days of warm summer weather to bring it to harvest. I wonder if that is why Rio Zape hasn't produced well for Northern Network Bean growers?

But it was interesting (to me) to see what they went through to get the Matterhorn/Rio Zape cross to be just as delicious as the original Rio Zape.

 

[Branching Out]

If you manage to stabilize a pole version of Tanya's Pink Pod @Branching Out ...I'll faint! That is such a fantastic bean variety, and a pole version would be even better!

Wouldn't that be cool? My Tanya's Pink Pod didn't do well this year, likely because of the location they were in, and the few the beans that they produced were touching the ground and getting eaten by insects. There could be a real benefit to having those pretty pink pods way up in the air, off the soil.

 

[heirloomgal]

Wouldn't that be cool? My Tanya's Pink Pod didn't do well this year, likely because of the location they were in, and the few the beans that they produced were touching the ground and getting eaten by insects. There could be a real benefit to having those pretty pink pods way up in the air, off the soil.

There are many bush beans that I love, but I must say (possibly heretically) that once I started growing pole beans more seriously.....there is just so much about them that beats bushes. The convenience of no support for the bushes is great, but there are soo many other things that make them problematic - proximity to ground dwelling issues of all kinds -bugs, rodents, fungus, soil, moisture, etc. - being #1. Then the production comparison, poles just can't be outdone. I also find, as a rule, pole beans are much more tender.

 

[flowerbug]

... It is too bad that beans have such a long season of growth; being able to grow out even two generations per year would be so much more efficient.

some universities and companies ship their seeds to other warmer sites to get a 2nd generation in.