AMKuska's 2019 Garden Thread

[AMKuska]

So the local dollar store is selling seeds, 4 for $1!! I got:

Beef steak tomatoes
Roma tomatoes
Cherry tomatoes
Bell peppers
Green onions
Cabbage
Radishes
Butternut squash.
Cantaloupe
Watermelon

I literally got enough seeds to feed myself for a whole year practically, and I paid $3 for it!

 

[Dirtmechanic]

Oooh, must be nice having a dishwasher. They're so versatile!

Oh you could use your pressure cooker too. Better really, they create the same conditions as an autoclave in a lab does with 15lbs of pressure. As a matter of fact, I am glad you made me think about it. I got Becky one of those 8 qt instapots and she has been looking for things to use it for.

 

[baymule]

I love having my dishwasher. I put my jars in it before canning. Even I know they are clean, I still fill them with boiling water. Dump it out and fill hot jars with food, seal and place in pressure canner.

 

[Dirtmechanic]

I love having my dishwasher. I put my jars in it before canning. Even I know they are clean, I still fill them with boiling water. Dump it out and fill hot jars with food, seal and place in pressure canner.

I was set sideways by the fact that 2 atmospheres (+15lbs) and a boiling temp which I believe is around 250f at that pressure is considered sterile and that only after some number of minutes. I say that in an observational way given we hear meat temps given to us by those supposedly "in the know" for temps between Loius Pastuers number of 140f and 180f on some fowl. There are obviously a lot of allowances for trust out there, which is a real honor for those supporting our food distribution networks. Hats off and thank you folks for a job well done!

 

[AMKuska]

I believe that's because of botulism.

Typically botulism is found in low acid vegetables, and meat products like sausages. Botulism is everywhere, but it doesn't become dangerous until it meets specific parameters - an oxygen free, moist, low acid environment.

Obviously with meat we roast in the oven, there is plenty of oxygen available, so there's no need to get rid of the botulism spores. They won't release the toxins that are harmful to us. You can ingest them just fine and nothing will happen. We cook the meat in order to get rid of other, less hardy pathogens like salmonella. For these diseases cooking only to 140F is just fine.

but when you can, you are sealing away that oxygen, and with certain canned foods like green beans, create the perfect environment for botulism toxins to grow. In this case its critical to kill the spores, and they are very hardy. 250F at the center of what ever it is you are canning is the only way to make sure they are destroyed, and render the food safe.

That's also why it's important to never reuse the lids when canning. Even if you're really careful, just a tiny nick in the rubber seal is enough to allow new botulism spores in. It's also why washing the vegetables beforehand and sterilizing the jars is so important.

 

[flowerbug]

So we did a big thing and ate canned vegetables for the first time today. Our canned vegetables that is. Every year I can all the excess food, and then never touch it ever in case high-pressure canning it to death somehow was not enough to get rid of the possible botulism. I took a canning course and I still get nervous.

Well today we ate some canned peppers, and we did NOT die. ^.^

Yet anyway.

View attachment 30276

lol i understand...

 

[Dirtmechanic]

Is it everywhere? I could test for it then? Not to burst your bubble but there are enough nasties in my garden that I have developed a dull dead eyeball that I use to view broad claims from the internet. And its dull yellow gleam has found your claim of botulism everywhere. Can you defend your statement with the appropriate pomp and circumstance as one would need to inscribe your claim in the hard metal upon which we all inscribe our own list of perceived facts? I love to change a perceived fact. It is harmless as an excercise yet affects beliefs and thus attitudes, so I do get some meta mileage out of the effort -and- everybody learns from the effort, so thank you in advance for entertaining my dull dead eyeball. It is so fussy these days!

 

[AMKuska]

@Dirtmechanic you should be embarrassed by this post. There are nicer ways to ask for sources than mocking another person, an actual human being, who is reading this post and feeling very hurt right now. I don't appreciate your behavior at all, but I will answer your questions.

Is it everywhere?
Yes. But of course, don't take my word for it. While I don't appreciate you referring to my thoughts on botulism as "pomp and circumstance" I do agree you shouldn't just take a stranger's word on the internet as fact, so I'll just share the sources where I got some of the information.

USDA website, third paragraph down, and I quote, "C. botulinum is prevalent in soil and marine sediments worldwide, most commonly as spores. These spores are found everywhere." Link:
https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...ss-and-disease/clostridium-botulinum/ct_index

A second reference, from the Virginia department of health:
http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/emergen...-diseases-threats/biological-agents/botulism/ Third to last paragraph: "Most infant botulism cases cannot be prevented because the bacteria that causes this disease is in soil and dust and can be found inside homes on floors, carpet, and countertops even after cleaning."

Can you test for it?
Botulism can be tested if you have a lab and the knowledge to do so. There are no easy test strips available.

Here's a study from the American Society of Microbiology that explains a bit about it:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1471988/

Relevant quote: "Culture methods for C. botulinum are poorly developed, and efficient isolation and identification tools are lacking."

Another reference:
The World Health Organization website:

"Food samples associated with suspect cases must be obtained immediately, stored in properly sealed containers, and sent to laboratories in order to identify the cause and to prevent further cases."

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/botulism

Edited to add a more in-depth explanation of available testing methods. Quote here:

"Botulinum toxin can be detected by a variety of techniques, including enzyme-linked immunosorbent assays (ELISAs), electrochemiluminescent (ECL) tests and mouse inoculation or feeding trials. The toxins can be typed with neutralization tests in mice. In toxico-infectious botulism, the organism can be cultured from tissues. On egg yolk medium, toxin-producing colonies usually display surface iridescence that extends beyond the colony. These diagnostic tests are mentioned in literature, but are not easily available in India. Lack of availability of commercial diagnostic kits such as ELISA, lack of anaerobic culture facility in most of the hospital and private set-ups as well as technical and ethical difficulties of doing neutralization test in mice make confirmation of diagnosis of botulism very challenging."

Link to study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171901/

And an interesting new form of testing:
https://cen.acs.org/articles/89/web/2011/02/Simple-Test-Botulism-Toxin.html

I hope these answered your questions.

Please don't ever speak to me like that again.

 

[AMKuska]

Moving along...we had a good day in the garden today. It has been too cold to go outside recently, but today it was a bright clear day. It was still cold, but tantalizingly warm enough that we all spilled out of the house to do a little adventuring.

Rin was in a chair covered in a blanket. She rejected a hat. She seemed to really enjoy going outside and looked around, beaming smiles at everyone.

I went in the garden and scraped a few weeds with the baffle hoe (I think that's what its called?) But my primary goal was to see if I could find any overwintering cabbage moth caterpillars. I know how to identify them, but I don't know where to look, or even if they're there. My goal was to kill any I could find.


My son came out to help me. He planned to eradicate caterpillars with a nerf gun. (Which he found at Goodwill, and convinced me to buy it for him by pointing out it was $80 on Amazon, and at Goodwill for $5. A $75 discount. I don't even know if it's true or not as I couldn't find that exact model to confirm, but just the fact that he understood finding a good deal at all was enough to spend $5 on it.)

All in all we only stayed outside about 5 minutes, as Rin's nose got red and I worried she was cold. Neither child wanted to go in, but if the weather is good we can always go out again tomorrow.

We didn't find any caterpillars.

 

[Dirtmechanic]

@Dirtmechanic you should be embarrassed by this post. There are nicer ways to ask for sources than mocking another person, an actual human being, who is reading this post and feeling very hurt right now. I don't appreciate your behavior at all, but I will answer your questions.

Is it everywhere?
Yes. But of course, don't take my word for it. While I don't appreciate you referring to my thoughts on botulism as "pomp and circumstance" I do agree you shouldn't just take a stranger's word on the internet as fact, so I'll just share the sources where I got some of the information.

USDA website, third paragraph down, and I quote, "C. botulinum is prevalent in soil and marine sediments worldwide, most commonly as spores. These spores are found everywhere." Link:
https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...ss-and-disease/clostridium-botulinum/ct_index

A second reference, from the Virginia department of health:
http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/emergen...-diseases-threats/biological-agents/botulism/ Third to last paragraph: "Most infant botulism cases cannot be prevented because the bacteria that causes this disease is in soil and dust and can be found inside homes on floors, carpet, and countertops even after cleaning."

Can you test for it?
Botulism can be tested if you have a lab and the knowledge to do so. There are no easy test strips available.

Here's a study from the American Society of Microbiology that explains a bit about it:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1471988/

Relevant quote: "Culture methods for C. botulinum are poorly developed, and efficient isolation and identification tools are lacking."

Another reference:
The World Health Organization website:

"Food samples associated with suspect cases must be obtained immediately, stored in properly sealed containers, and sent to laboratories in order to identify the cause and to prevent further cases."

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/botulism

Edited to add a more in-depth explanation of available testing methods. Quote here:

"Botulinum toxin can be detected by a variety of techniques, including enzyme-linked immunosorbent assays (ELISAs), electrochemiluminescent (ECL) tests and mouse inoculation or feeding trials. The toxins can be typed with neutralization tests in mice. In toxico-infectious botulism, the organism can be cultured from tissues. On egg yolk medium, toxin-producing colonies usually display surface iridescence that extends beyond the colony. These diagnostic tests are mentioned in literature, but are not easily available in India. Lack of availability of commercial diagnostic kits such as ELISA, lack of anaerobic culture facility in most of the hospital and private set-ups as well as technical and ethical difficulties of doing neutralization test in mice make confirmation of diagnosis of botulism very challenging."

Link to study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171901/

And an interesting new form of testing:
https://cen.acs.org/articles/89/web/2011/02/Simple-Test-Botulism-Toxin.html

I hope these answered your questions.

Please don't ever speak to me like that again.

I enjoyed your response to my prodding post. My prodding was intentional, because the subject is so serious. I think your detailed awareness of botulism is both extensive and impressive.

I have developed a deep respect for fungi and bacteria in my garden because I have met so many that are destructive and dangerous. There are so many for which I cannot find a control or defense.

I apologize if you misinterpret my lighthearted challenge with any intent other than the pursuit of empirical, repeatable knowledge. I would actually suggest you be more forthcoming with the details of what you know. Your post had all the hallmarks of an advanced study on a most serious subject matter,yet before I "provoked" you to respond, so much of what you obviously know was hidden. Thank you for sharing it with me, even if you were a little mad at me.