Choices farmers have to make, you chose

[vfem]

Seedcorn, I think most of the replies you are getting are actually well within the scope of your original question--with the general answer here being NEITHER.

On this, I understand.

So if you use NO corporation products or products from farmers that do, pay the extra for crops grown the way you want them, I'm happy for you & will support your right to do so. Just don't buy corp. products and complain about them. Don't support them.

I do the same thing w/shoes.....refuse to buy high priced shoes made overseas w/slave labor & no labor laws.

What you want is out there, if you are willing to pay for it.

I have to agree with this! The choice is OURS in the end. Isn't that where the end of the sale and profit comes from, the END result is the consumer picking something up in the store made from that produce.

I really do try to read the info on every product I buy, sometimes I have to pay for the crud I don't want made with crud I don't want... but for the most part I've swapped for quality and can ONLY afford to do that BECAUSE I grow such a huge amount of my own healthy veggies.

Changing my main home living gave me the right to chose everything else I buy.

Like I fell in love with a pair of sneakers, after several phone calls to customer service and getting to talk to a human... I finally got to ask where the shoes were made. They were made in CHINA!

I quickly told them I would not be purchasing from them after all, they said they were said to hear that, and I suggested the moved operations to the USA.



Now my husband got laid off, it may be back to quanity for our $$ rather then Quality. We'll see how the farming season treats us locally. :/

 

[patandchickens]

America does the exact same thing to other countries.

Huge differences.
--Ag products imported by other countries are done by their government to feed their people. Their farmers are PROTECTED financially so it does not lower their prices as they are protected on inputs and outputs.

This is so incorrect it is almost shocking. Cheap American imported <you-name-it> have nearly ELIMINATED local farming industries in so many products in so many places, I scarcely know where to begin. Partly because US corporations grow things on such mega scales that there is more economy of scale, and greater access to cutting-edge ag technology; but also partly because of gov't price supports and subsidies. Here are a few cases to introduce you to the concept:

http://eurostep.antenna.nl/detail_pub.phtml?page=pubs_position_coherence_jamaicad
http://www.ifg.org/programs/indig/CancunDec.html
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/envdev671.doc.htm

(all of these links, which is the best I could do in about 5 minutes of googling b/c I am just not figuring out what the right search terms should be, are somewhat activist-related. Not surprisingly, since those who are *aware* of the problem obviously feel it is something that should be *addressed* Ignore the politicism if you wish, and just concentrate on the facts and numbers and stories being presented. They are only the tip of the iceberg)

Bottom line, there are some things that country A is producing cheaper than the USA and can undercut US farmers' prices for; but there are also a number of things that the USA is producing cheaper (largely as a result of gov't subsidies and price supports) than country A, or country B, and can therefore capture most of the market *there*.

--American subsidies are not even close in nature to what Canada/Europe have. We're talking oranges and cows.

I do not know what the current Canadian subsidy situation is (you know how these things change with the winds of politics), but when I moved up here (around 2003ish) Canadian farmers were very loudly bemoaning getting way LESS subsidies than American farmers of the same crops and being thus insufficiently-able to compete with imported American stuff.

FYI, dairy industry was NEVER supported by Government, that was dairy farmer controlled through coops.

Sorry, you're quite mistaken:

to quote from http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/aib761/aib761.pdf , which is a USDA document explaining for a general audience how milk prices are set:

"The pricing of milk in the United States involves a wide variety of pricing regulations based on public policy decisions. Some of these regulations include milk price supports, Federal milk marketing orders, import restrictions, export subsidies, domestic and international food aid programs, State-levl milk marketing programs, and a multi-state milk pricing organization. Nongovernment pricing institutions are also important - the dairy cooperative being a major example"

It's actually an interesting document to read (it's a short, quickly-loading pdf, to reassure those who like me are on dialup) - it goes into considerable detail about the history, rationales and mechanisms for the manipulation of milk prices throughout US history and today. Government regulation is pervasive throughout.

Pat

 

[wifezilla]

dairy industry was NEVER supported by Government

I am from dairy country. The government is in the dairy industry up to its eyeballs.

 

[seedcorn]

subsidised milk powder coming from the European Union

same problem we have here in America. Except we have Dutch dairies producing milk in America w/european subsidies. Thankfully that area can only produce so much milk otherwise they'd besiege the world--altho expanding their operations (financially in USA is doing the same thing) in milk. Vegetables/fruit produced in America are almost non-existant due to 3rd world countries with no labor laws or environmental laws. You don't want to know what chemicals are used on Mexican produce.........most of the chemicals used are outlawed in USA.

That has never been an point of discussion. Our corn/soybeans are bought by China, Italy, other governments where in America it is not the federal government importing grains, it's the Cargills, etc doing it to lower our prices.


Side note--suppose to have an article written by a retired prof from Purdue coming tonite that indicates the health problems associated w/RR gene. Problem is (I'm told) is that he doesn't deal w/problems of the other choices in Ag.

I'm also going to do an interview w/dairymen here in Indiana so he can explain the dairy situation from a family farm perspective.

 

[seedcorn]

On second thought you are all correct & I'm dead wrong.........so to make enough money to pay bills, support their families, farmers in the midwest will produce......

corn--w/out chemicals, hybrid seed, no market to pay consistent higher prices needed since yields will be 1/3.

soybeans--can't grow acres w/out chemicals to control weeds......so they are out.

wheat--60 bu wheat will have farmer broke in 1 year.

milk--can't overcome initial cost of setup, plus dairies are losing $$ this year. Minimum of 2 year project as have to:
do environmental study
Get any neighbor w/in 2 miles to sign off
Get county, state permits
Put together a business plan showing how I will house cows, transfer the manure, manage the manure, fertilize, analyse EVERY acre I own, rent, manage.
Get loans to pay for everything

Hogs--see milk problem

chickens--see hogs

sheep--wool market in tank, plus can't compete w/Australian lamb.

specialty products........give me some ideas that the midwest can grow.

Remember goal is to make $$ to live on.

 

[wifezilla]

 

[Lavender2]

I wish I had one of these ...

High Tunnels

It won't feed the world, but it gives people and small farmers a smarter choice.
We have over 100 successful farmers markets in the metro area and they continue to grow.
Hopefully the 'buy local and fresh' trend will continue.

This is where we buy our milk ...

Autumnwood Farm

 

[patandchickens]

Then how come some people DO it, seedcorn, successfully -- and that's WITH the current structure of agriculture which is totally nonhelpful to smaller or diversified operations? You can't chalk it all up to niche markets. There is a farm a couple of miles from here that grows all sorts of veggies, plus sweet corn, plus meat goats (which they have only to convert farm surplus/waste into fertilizer, which they need a lot of being on sandy soil), and sells them at the same price as the supermarkets and sometimes less, and is doing pretty well. They do have a corn maze in the fall which helps some but I gather they were making a profit even before that. And what about mennonite farmers? Etc.

I don't see what can be constructive about setting up a straw man of "here is an extreme thing we cannot do and remain in business" and use that to argue that things have to be the way they currently are. There is a whole lot of in-between, and a whole lot of alternatives you are not even admitting to.

Pat

 

[Beekissed]

I agree.

That's funny....I seem to make enough money to pay my bills, support my family and feed everyone without agribiz farming....let alone without farming hand in hand with Monsanto.

The problem is you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If one buys expensive equipment, buildings, storage facilities, patented seeds, etc. I could very well see how hard it is to pay the bills....the bills that are entirely unnecessary to begin with. One would have to grow a lot of crops in the easiest way possible to keep up with those kinds of expenses.

Here's a clue....sell the equipment, convert the majority of your fields to rotational grazing for some cattle or sheep, followed by chickens and rabbits. If you do grow a crop, do it without tilling, use your own manure producing animals for fertilizer, cover crops of nitrogen fixing legumes to keep your soil from being depleted, etc.

I recognize the need for biodiversity and a polyculture farming method and so am doing it in my own small way right here where I live. It can be as small scale or as large scale as one wants it to be. Yes, one can still grow grains for their animals or for food, but it can be done without pesticides, fungicides, etc.

There are farmers doing this every day and it is no longer so much a niche market to produce healthy foods that are grown in a more sustainable way. As mentioned before....check out Joel Salatin at Polyface farms. No, he isn't feeding the masses but he is feeding quite a few folks out there who definitely are willing to pay more for quality. They are also willing to pay more for a product that adds to the soil and environment instead of taking away....always taking away.

 

[wifezilla]

From an interview I just read he is feeding and estimated 9000 from his Virginia place.