Consumer prices for organic food

[897tgigvib]

ah never mind

I hate it when i violate central tenants

 

[homewardbound]

can someone make a living on 40 acres of apple trees?

In the eastern part of the U.S. most organic farms are only a few acres- 10-20 at most. So there are hundreds if not thousands of people who do make their living as organic farmers- and without being land tycoons.

If organic can't use chemicals to stop scab, how much do scabby apples sell for vs. non-scabby apples?

You are assuming that is no organic way to deal with scab.

http://www.ghorganics.com/page15.html#ChiveSpray

http://www.organicgarden.org.uk/gardening/pests-diseases/sprays-organic-for-pest-control/

http://edgecombe.ces.ncsu.edu/files/library/33/organic and low spray apple.pdf

IF organic can use chemicals is it really organic or chemical free?

Nothing in the world is chemical free because everything in the world is made up of chemical elements. Organic simply means something that isnt manmade. A spray made from sulfur is a chemical spray, but it is an organic spray as long as no manmade mixture of chemicals is included with it.

 

[homewardbound]

Let us say organic farmers can't use chemicals, but must use USDA approved materials for certification.

By and large USDA standards are written for the benefit of the agriculture/food processing industry. Big companies like Monsanto and Conagra want to be able to legally label their products as organic so they can charge higher prices without having to abide by the stricter organic standards that are set by non-government organizations.

 

[so lucky]

It was a good attempt, Marshall. It's hard to generalize just for "imagining" if you keep getting rocks thrown at your idea. But I, too, have often wondered why the organic vegetables and raw milk I buy cost more than twice as much as non-organic and processed. I can understand it with stuff like cookies and Hamburger Helper and fruit drinks, where they use artificial flavorings to enhance wood pulp, but an apple is an apple is an apple.

 

[homewardbound]

There are several organic treatments that can be used on crops. Pyrethrum is made from chrysanthemums, and it is a hardcore neurotoxin that kills all insects (good or bad.) Since it's made from natural substances it's organic.

Thus showing that an organic method is not always an environmentally sound method. Pyrethrum destroys a farm's ecosystem by killing all bugs. In terms of environmental devastation it is no different than any non-organic pesticide that does the same thing. Furthermore, the flowers used to make pyrethrum must be harvested and processed by hand and I've seen reports that the women and children who do this work in Africa have gotten sick because of their exposure to pyrethrum.

 

[The Mama Chicken]

Let us say organic farmers can't use chemicals, but must use USDA approved materials for certification.

By and large USDA standards are written for the benefit of the agriculture/food processing industry. Big companies like Monsanto and Conagra want to be able to legally label their products as organic so they can charge higher prices without having to abide by the stricter organic standards that are set by non-government organizations.

Very true, a better choice would be Certified Naturally Grown. The program isn't run by the government, so there isn't the corruption that is inherent in the system. (And now I have Monty Python stuck in my head..."Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!")

 

[Ridgerunner]

Don't get confused by "certified organic" and "organic tenets". Those can be two very different things. Any time you write down the rules, you set restrictions but you also let people find loopholes. I'm personally not all that comforted by the "certified organic" label. All that means is that they followed the rules written down or were not caught violating them. That does not mean they followed the spirit of organic. I believe buying local does more good for the environment than buying things drenched in fuel by transporting them across the country or even across the world even if they are "certified organic".

One of the reasons organic costs more is that people are willing to pay the higher prices. What kind of businessman would you be if you don't try to maximize your profits? If you can find a market for your product at a higher price, then you are a lot more likely to charge more.

Another big reason organic can cost more is that it is labor intensive. Growing the stuff is only part of the cost. You have to harvest it, sort it, clean it, package it, warehouse it, and transport it. Huge factory farms that can automate those processes can do it a lot cheaper than someone who has to do it by hand. Some of those specialized machines can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Some "organic" produce is not as pretty as the farm factory produced stuff. Many people won't buy it because it has a blemish, let alone pay more for it. You might say that "organic" is more of a niche market than a mass market.

I an certainly not "certified organic". I am not be considered organic at all by anybody. I don't see a huge difference in using a deadly poison produced by nature as opposed to one produced by man. Either used wrong can harm the environment. I'll use either if I deem it appropriate and I'll use it very sparingly and target a very specific target. I don't blindly go spraying everything with insecticides. If I remember correctly, I used an insecticide four times last year, all targetiing something specific. I've tried many "organic" procedures. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.

 

[homewardbound]

I'm personally not all that comforted by the "certified organic" label.

I dont go out of my way to buy things just because they are labeled organic or natural because you never know or can never really trust the standards being lived up to. I cannot vouch for what goes into the compost that I buy for my garden- I get what I can afford, and I do use some non-organic liquid fertilizer mainly because Floridas rain, heat and sandy soils mean organic matter doesnt last long in your soil; I use liquid fertilizer to take advantage of natural rainfall (8 inches down since January) that I dont always have available. But I dont use non-organic pesticide around food plants except when I have to deal with ants because I am allergic to ant venom and I know of no organic control for ants that actually works. Using my own standards I could not get any kind of certification. But then if I were to sell anything I wouldnt have an excuse for price gouging.

Another big reason organic can cost more is that it is labor intensive.

Some methods are more labor intensive than others. Growing vegetables in rows takes a lot more time and labor than using wide beds or Mel Bartholomews 4 foot by 4 foot beds. You get more weeds in rows than you do beds because the plants in a bed shade the ground they are growing in and form their own mulch. And once you have beds established you have less plowing and digging to do between crops.

You have to harvest it, sort it, clean it, package it, warehouse it, and transport it.

I have to do all of this for the produce that I give away and a non-organic farmer has to do the same so none of this would give an organic farmer a cost that a non-organic farmer would not also have.

Huge factory farms that can automate those processes can do it a lot cheaper than someone who has to do it by hand.

Doesnt most produce have to be picked by hand? Can you pick apples, cucumbers, tomatoes, lettuce or peppers by machine? And dont machines need fuel and oil changes and new tires and spare parts and repairs that an organic farmer using hand labor would not have to pay for?

Some "organic" produce is not as pretty as the farm factory produced stuff.

I dont live anywhere near farm country so practically nothing is produced locally. But in comparison to what gets sold by Walmart and the local grocery stores the organic produce sold by Whole Foods and the few organic groceries we have here never looks that bad.

Many people won't buy it because it has a blemish, let alone pay more for it. You might say that "organic" is more of a niche market than a mass market.

Which goes back to my original premise: It doesnt cost any more to be organic than it does to be conventional, but organic food costs more because some consumers are willing to pay a premium price just because something is labeled organic.

 

[chris09]

2 other crops from the same space as the orchard- meat and wool similar to cashmere.

I don't believe that Babydoll Southdown wool is similar to Cashmere Hair.

Now just like with Sheep have different grades for there wool the Cashmere breed has different grades for there hair and to me there fibers are very different. Nothing what I would call "Similar"


Chris

 

[peteyfoozer]

I don't know much about all the organic stuff...but I would think some 'organic' products should cost more...say...meat. I am all for eating as healthy and natural as possible, but if being organic means I can't use the necessary preventative measures for my livestock, say worming them for parasite control and certain vaccinations to prevent losing half of my herd...not being able to use certain feeds because they don't meet the standards then I am not able to sustain my flock/herd/whatever.

I drink raw milk from a Jersey cow and make all our milk products and all our food from scratch, but that same cow, even though she is on grass pasture most of the year, needs corn/oat/barley and alfalfa supplements in order to survive. She can't maintain her weight and make milk without it. For me, sometimes the 'risk' of non organic measures is worth taking.