Home gardens designed like agricultural operations, What?!?!?!

[jasonvivier]

The original topic is found at http://www.theeasygarden.com/threads/anybody-with-advice-on-vegetation-killer.16593/page-4

Jason, very aware of differences. Are you a commercial farmer? Do you understand all the farming practices? Do you understand the differences between minimum till, no-till, cover crops, strip till etc? Not trying to be difficult but the general public has NO idea how/why agriculture got to where it is today. The next 5 years it is projected that there will be more changes in AG than have been in last 10-20 years. As much as some gardeners love to chant the montra that they are sustainable, they aren't any more than commercial AG. They aren't the first to rotate crops or use manure for fertilizers. Organic gardeners use chemicals, just approved chemicals. Why chemicals, because they couldn't control weeds/insects either.

Yes I am aware of farming practices. But I don't need to be; gardening like a farmer a waste of time, money, and effort.


"Do you understand the differences between minimum till, no-till, cover crops, strip till etc?" Why yes I do thanks.


"Not trying to be difficult but the general public has NO idea how/why agriculture got to where it is today. " I would agree with you; because on mass the public isn't comprised of farmers, 'generally.'


"The next 5 years it is projected that there will be more changes in AG than have been in last 10-20 years." The procedure of agriculture hasn't changed since before the Romans during the Aegean Bronze Age on the island of Crete as cataloged by Homer discussing the Minoan civilization, only the implementation has changed.

• Side note read Virgil's "The Georgics" if you haven't already. It's all about agriculture as seen in 29 B.C.
• I'm a bit of a history buff.

"As much as some gardeners love to chant the montra that they are sustainable, they aren't any more than commercial AG." Mantra.. A forest is a stable ecosystem that is sustainable if not how would they last millions of years? We don't need to fertilize or water a forest; in fact all of the nitrogen a forest will ever have is included in it already. Doesn't is stand to reason that a garden designed like a forest would also be a stable and sustainable system? If the focus of that garden was on food production doesn't it make sense that it would be a sustainable food forest garden?


· If a gardener designs their garden like a forest would you concede that it is more sustainable then commercial AG?

· Clearly you will admit to be mistaken here. Right?

o "We learn the most when we admit we are wrong - I do it regularly. -Someone, somewhere"


"Organic gardeners use chemicals, just approved chemicals. Why chemicals, because they couldn't control weeds/insects either." I'll agree that organic chemicals are still chemicals. And I’ll' even go further and say that even synthetic chemicals can be beneficial and not hurt an ecosystem if used properly and for slight adjustments. They typically are over used but that is a different discussion.


And I'll even say that Organic gardening if designed off of modern day commercial agriculture will require chemicals because the design of modern day commercial agriculture requires them.

1. Which brings me to my point from earlier; Gardens shouldn't be designed like commercial agriculture, because that design comes with all of the conventional problems of industrial agriculture which on a large scale are combated by external inputs.
2. To the home gardener these problems (weeds, pests, fertilizer, and hydrology) are design issues, nothing more.
3. Again the difference between mimicking natural systems (our forest garden design) and agricultural systems design based mostly on mono-cropping: Mono-cropping is what creates the agricultural design systems, home gardeners hardly ever mono-crop. So they need a system of design based on poly-cultures; agriculture has no framework for such as garden because conventional agriculture
   • can't utilize perennial nitrogen fixation like a home gardener can because of machinery, herbicide and financial risk factors.
   • can't utilize perennial dynamic nutrient accumulation like a home gardener can because of machinery, herbicide and financial risk factors.
   • can't focus on soil building efforts for more than the off season because of tight margins and financial risk
   • can't focus on building up mycorrhizae associations in any meaningful way because again they can't utilize perennial soil building strategies because of mono-cropping and because agricultural equipment compacts soil which damages soil biology; equipment + risk + mono-cropping = industrial agriculture design.

In closing I’d like to say I’m not poking my finger in the chest of farmers. I actually intellectually totally understand why farmers do things the way they do them and without being able to offer a better system for industrial agriculture I am happy to stand on the side lines and watch them do it. Even though I completely disagree with conventional practices on the scale of modern day agriculture I can't offer any better ideas. At best I can say we wouldn't need as much conventional agriculture if the world populations were home gardeners.

My argument has been that modern day agricultural practices do not apply to the home gardener, and I feel like I have made that point.

 

[seedcorn]

Sorry, your analogy (sorry I don't use spell check and my spelling is wrong more than once) to a forest is not the same as it is not intensively farmed. IF you only harvested your garden every 20-30 years, would you garden? Closer would be orchards that are harvested-even that is not a good comparison.

Farming and home gardens share a lot. In place of equipment would be tillers or forks and the bottom of our feet.

Every crop takes N, P,K, Ca and micros out of soil that have to be replaced-no matter the source-so nothing is sustainable without adding. Moving your garden just leaves a raped, depleted patch of dirt if you don't replace what was taken. I have 1.5 acre patch that was treated that way, taken 25+ years to grow weeds by being left alone. Few scrub trees are there-key word is scrub trees-good trees die......

We agree that chemicals are chemicals-not necessarily good or bad.

Enjoy your form of gardening. Feel free to post how I can get rid of weeds and hornworms without work. I'm all for that-so tired of crab grass, hornworms, ants, vine borers.

 

[ninnymary]

seedcorn, I like how gracious you are being!

Mary

 

[Beekissed]

Seedcorn, here's a good vid to watch that explains about how one guy is using a deep litter kind of gardening and also explains about pests and weeds. I really liked his explanation for why bugs are drawn towards our garden plants and their role in that garden ecosystem(ya gotta watch the whole thing to get to that part). I've been gardening a long, long time but had yet to hear anything with this perspective but it makes a lot of sense...a lot.

http://www.backtoedenfilm.com/

 

[flowerweaver]

As an organic subsistence farmer living in a land of little rain, one of the alternative practices I am using is developing landrace crops. It's nothing new--a strategy employed for thousands of years by native peoples, especially in the Southwest. It's the opposite of trying to keep heirlooms 'pure'--instead I grow as many different plants as I can together to encourage cross pollination and high genetic diversity in the offspring. The increasingly odd weather patterns, droughts, heat, poor soil, and varmints weed out what isn't suited to my locale, and I weed out plants that don't conform to my taste standards.

Each year by saving my own seeds I am getting plants that are better adapted to my situation than anything I could buy, which is important because most seed companies come from the Pacific northwest and New England, which have very different growing conditions than the Southwest. The increased genetic diversity helps ensure something will survive no matter how weird things get.

I find food forests intriguing, but not a lot of those suggested plants grow in highly alkaline soil, or drought, or heat. We do harvest many native things from our woodland and prairie to eat, but I would not want to live solely off of those foodstuffs unless I had to. I do have many perennial vegetables though.

 

[jasonvivier]

Sorry, your analogy (sorry I don't use spell check and my spelling is wrong more than once) to a forest is not the same as it is not intensively farmed. IF you only harvested your garden every 20-30 years, would you garden? Closer would be orchards that are harvested-even that is not a good comparison.

Farming and home gardens share a lot. In place of equipment would be tillers or forks and the bottom of our feet.

Every crop takes N, P,K, Ca and micros out of soil that have to be replaced-no matter the source-so nothing is sustainable without adding. Moving your garden just leaves a raped, depleted patch of dirt if you don't replace what was taken. I have 1.5 acre patch that was treated that way, taken 25+ years to grow weeds by being left alone. Few scrub trees are there-key word is scrub trees-good trees die......

We agree that chemicals are chemicals-not necessarily good or bad.

Enjoy your form of gardening. Feel free to post how I can get rid of weeds and hornworms without work. I'm all for that-so tired of crab grass, hornworms, ants, vine borers.

"IF you only harvested your garden every 20-30 years, would you garden?"

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about and it fails to the reality that you harvest based off of availability of crop, no matter what the system.

• A lot of over story trees produce yearly
• A lot of under story trees produce yearly
• Many shrubs produce yearly
• Many herbaceous plants produce yearly
• Many clumpers produce yearly
• Many ground covers produce yearly
• Many root crops produce yearly
• Many vining plants produce yearly.
• All of that production only increases as time goes on.

[You don't understand the argument] You misunderstand 'intensively farmed' to mean something other than 'production'. Production is an energy in energy out equation. In our case we are discussing the energy of off site inputs vs. the amount of energy out [really your idea here has nothing to do with the conversation.] More appropriately it would be intensively gardened because we are not talking about farming, but even that has nothing to do with the conversation.

"Closer would be orchards that are harvested-even that is not a good comparison."

This also fails because you are replacing a corn field with an apple orchard. It is still the design flaw of a mono-cropping system. You can't make that analogy work in any way without just lying about it. Mono-cultures do not exist in nature or in gardens, they only exist in agricultural fields.

"Every crop takes N, P,K, Ca and micros out of soil that have to be replaced-no matter the source-so nothing is sustainable without adding." - of course that must come by truck lol.

Yes, but again you are thinking in a monocultural way; soil food web, polycultures and solar energy resolve that issue. Solar energy is the free input that drives the forest machine. That solar energy makes things that are otherwise not available, available to plants through trade offs in soil biology and other processes that make up the soil food web. Also this is where perennial nitrogen fixation and perennial dynamic nutrient accumulators come in. Oh yeah, and atmospheric nitrogen.

"hornworms, ants, vine borers."

I haven't had insect problems since I was a boy in my grandfathers field of tomatoes. I plant all of my plants in polycultures. When I come across pest damage I generally just wait and something comes along and takes care of it. Usually spiders or other beneficial insects. I plant plants that attract beneficial insects and always include pest confusing plants in my guilds. I just wouldn't know what else to tell you. Design+Mulch+Plant Diversity+Feeding the soil = a happy self regulating garden.

Actually when I designed the garden, I first picked out perennial plants and self seeding plants for food production, mulch production (Nitrogen fixers and Nutrient accumulators), beneficial insect production, and pest confusion first. The spaces in between these polycultures is where the annual crops go.

Perennial and self seeding food production (At my house, not at the test site)

• Hazel Nut
• Plum
• Pear
• Blueberry
• Strawberry
• Gooseberry
• Lupine - Lupinus affn. Angustifolius
• Rhubarb
• Jerusalem Artichoke
• Black Current
• Apple
• Mint
• Hardy Kiwi Vine
• 3 types of Perennial Kale
• 2 types of self seeding kale
• Lavender
• Roman Chamomile
• Black Berries
• Raspberries
• Perennial Arugula
• Siberian Pea Shrub
• 3 types of Grapes
• Paw Paw
• Sunflowers
• Dill
• Lettuce
• Parsley
• Walking Onions
• Oregano
• Corn salad
• Borage

All of them but the Paw Paw and the Hardy Kiwi have produced and increase production every year (so far.)

Mulch production: (Feeding soil makes plants strong and provides them with immunity.)

• What you all call 'weeds'
• Comfrey
• Jerusalem Artichokes
• Sunflowers
• Melon leaves
• Tomato plants
• All other annual plant detritus
• Fall leaves
• Amaranth

Beneficial insect production:

• Borage
• Black Eye Susan
• Milkweed
• Jerusalem Artichoke
• Echinacea
• Lupine
• Calendrula
• Butterfly bush
• Gooseberry
• Nasturtiums

Pest confusion: All of the aromatic plants.

So I would just suggest that you design away your work. If your tomatoes are always the target, Manduca quinquemaculata are easy to confuse. We are smarter than they are I promise. When I start my tomatoes I do a surface sowing in the same pot of basil. When I transplant my tomato start into the garden I leave a few basil plants right next to it. Along the paths to in my garden I plant marigolds and other aromatic pest confusers. Both of these plants confuse Horn worm. A stabilized ecosystem can accept some pests, but there is always a bigger fish.

Important to note:

1. If you have been spraying moving to a natural system takes a few seasons. You wouldn't want to just stop spraying. You would first introduce plants that attract beneficial insects and confuse pests and slowly reduce the amount of chemicals you use.
2. It could take a few years to get your garden off of the drugs dude.
3. In a balanced ecosystem checks exist that handle populations that get out of control. This is how nature works; more diversity = less work.

 

[jasonvivier]

As an organic subsistence farmer living in a land of little rain, one of the alternative practices I am using is developing landrace crops. It's nothing new--a strategy employed for thousands of years by native peoples, especially in the Southwest. It's the opposite of trying to keep heirlooms 'pure'--instead I grow as many different plants as I can together to encourage cross pollination and high genetic diversity in the offspring. The increasingly odd weather patterns, droughts, heat, poor soil, and varmints weed out what isn't suited to my locale, and I weed out plants that don't conform to my taste standards.

Each year by saving my own seeds I am getting plants that are better adapted to my situation than anything I could buy, which is important because most seed companies come from the Pacific northwest and New England, which have very different growing conditions than the Southwest. The increased genetic diversity helps ensure something will survive no matter how weird things get.

I find food forests intriguing, but not a lot of those suggested plants grow in highly alkaline soil, or drought, or heat. We do harvest many native things from our woodland and prairie to eat, but I would not want to live solely off of those foodstuffs unless I had to. I do have many perennial vegetables though.

That is an great technique that everyone should do. In my opinion. Most plants see their first genetic adaptation after three years in any soil as I understand it - Life finds a way.

 

[seedcorn]

Seedcorn, here's a good vid to watch that explains about how one guy is using a deep litter kind of gardening and also explains about pests and weeds. I really liked his explanation for why bugs are drawn towards our garden plants and their role in that garden ecosystem(ya gotta watch the whole thing to get to that part). I've been gardening a long, long time but had yet to hear anything with this perspective but it makes a lot of sense...a lot.

http://www.backtoedenfilm.com/

Sorry, don't want to give 2 hours of my life to listen to him. By using natural fibers to mulch/replace nutrients taken, I already do that. No problem here. Commercial AG is trying to duplicate it with cover crops and better utilization of by-products-manure, etc.

If you can explain what I need to use as mulch (straw currently that does NOTHING to slow down insects-argument can be made it attracts them) I'm reading. Ready to learn.

@flowerweaver, you are plant breeding for better genetics for your environment. Good deal. Suggest, read a few genetic books and might speed up you search for better genetics. You may get a cultivar named after you....

 

[ninnymary]

"IF you only harvested your garden every 20-30 years, would you garden?"

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about and it fails to the reality that you harvest based off of availability of crop, no matter what the system.

• A lot of over story trees produce yearly
• A lot of under story trees produce yearly
• Many shrubs produce yearly
• Many herbaceous plants produce yearly
• Many clumpers produce yearly
• Many ground covers produce yearly
• Many root crops produce yearly
• Many vining plants produce yearly.
• All of that production only increases as time goes on.

[You don't understand the argument] You misunderstand 'intensively farmed' to mean something other than 'production'. Production is an energy in energy out equation. In our case we are discussing the energy of off site inputs vs. the amount of energy out [really your idea here has nothing to do with the conversation.] More appropriately it would be intensively gardened because we are not talking about farming, but even that has nothing to do with the conversation.

"Closer would be orchards that are harvested-even that is not a good comparison."

This also fails because you are replacing a corn field with an apple orchard. It is still the design flaw of a mono-cropping system. You can't make that analogy work in any way without just lying about it. Mono-cultures do not exist in nature or in gardens, they only exist in agricultural fields.

"Every crop takes N, P,K, Ca and micros out of soil that have to be replaced-no matter the source-so nothing is sustainable without adding." - of course that must come by truck lol.

Yes, but again you are thinking in a monocultural way; soil food web, polycultures and solar energy resolve that issue. Solar energy is the free input that drives the forest machine. That solar energy makes things that are otherwise not available, available to plants through trade offs in soil biology and other processes that make up the soil food web. Also this is where perennial nitrogen fixation and perennial dynamic nutrient accumulators come in. Oh yeah, and atmospheric nitrogen.

"hornworms, ants, vine borers."

I haven't had insect problems since I was a boy in my grandfathers field of tomatoes. I plant all of my plants in polycultures. When I come across pest damage I generally just wait and something comes along and takes care of it. Usually spiders or other beneficial insects. I plant plants that attract beneficial insects and always include pest confusing plants in my guilds. I just wouldn't know what else to tell you. Design+Mulch+Plant Diversity+Feeding the soil = a happy self regulating garden.

Actually when I designed the garden, I first picked out perennial plants and self seeding plants for food production, mulch production (Nitrogen fixers and Nutrient accumulators), beneficial insect production, and pest confusion first. The spaces in between these polycultures is where the annual crops go.

Perennial and self seeding food production (At my house, not at the test site)

• Hazel Nut
• Plum
• Pear
• Blueberry
• Strawberry
• Gooseberry
• Lupine - Lupinus affn. Angustifolius
• Rhubarb
• Jerusalem Artichoke
• Black Current
• Apple
• Mint
• Hardy Kiwi Vine
• 3 types of Perennial Kale
• 2 types of self seeding kale
• Lavender
• Roman Chamomile
• Black Berries
• Raspberries
• Perennial Arugula
• Siberian Pea Shrub
• 3 types of Grapes
• Paw Paw
• Sunflowers
• Dill
• Lettuce
• Parsley
• Walking Onions
• Oregano
• Corn salad
• Borage

All of them but the Paw Paw and the Hardy Kiwi have produced and increase production every year (so far.)

Mulch production: (Feeding soil makes plants strong and provides them with immunity.)

• What you all call 'weeds'
• Comfrey
• Jerusalem Artichokes
• Sunflowers
• Melon leaves
• Tomato plants
• All other annual plant detritus
• Fall leaves
• Amaranth

Beneficial insect production:

• Borage
• Black Eye Susan
• Milkweed
• Jerusalem Artichoke
• Echinacea
• Lupine
• Calendrula
• Butterfly bush
• Gooseberry
• Nasturtiums

Pest confusion: All of the aromatic plants.

So I would just suggest that you design away your work. If your tomatoes are always the target, Manduca quinquemaculata are easy to confuse. We are smarter than they are I promise. When I start my tomatoes I do a surface sowing in the same pot of basil. When I transplant my tomato start into the garden I leave a few basil plants right next to it. Along the paths to in my garden I plant marigolds and other aromatic pest confusers. Both of these plants confuse Horn worm. A stabilized ecosystem can accept some pests, but there is always a bigger fish.

Important to note:

1. If you have been spraying moving to a natural system takes a few seasons. You wouldn't want to just stop spraying. You would first introduce plants that attract beneficial insects and confuse pests and slowly reduce the amount of chemicals you use.
2. It could take a few years to get your garden off of the drugs dude.
3. In a balanced ecosystem checks exist that handle populations that get out of control. This is how nature works; more diversity = less work.

I'd like to see pictures of all the things that you are growing.

Mary

 

[jasonvivier]

Sorry, don't want to give 2 hours of my life to listen to him. By using natural fibers to mulch/replace nutrients taken, I already do that. No problem here. Commercial AG is trying to duplicate it with cover crops and better utilization of by-products-manure, etc.

If you can explain what I need to use as mulch (straw currently that does NOTHING to slow down insects-argument can be made it attracts them) I'm reading. Ready to learn.

My two cents is as diverse a material as you have available. And then grow mulch plants as well. 'Weeds' make great mulch plants, but I like to know a little something about the plant. It might be beneficial.

Where in NE are you?