How old are the seeds you just bought?

[donna13350]

In the seed industry, keeping the same genetics is the #1 problem. It is why hybrids only last so long.

I always thought it was due to crosses...even self pollinating plants will outcross every now and then.
I thought just the opposite of your answer for heirlooms...keeping the same genetics is why we can save seed and grow them year after year and get the same plant????
You can't save seed from a hybrid and expect to get the same variety.
Somebody please clear this up for me !!

 

[digitS']

Planting ease-clay on small seeds.

Utah State list carrot seed as needing 14-21 days to emergence at a planting depth of 1/4 to 1/2 inch.

Clay pelleting really helps to hold moisture. I can't be there to water every day and if we have some dry weather, 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the soil I have to work with won't hold enough moisture over those long days they need. There goes germination! My alternatives to pelleted carrot seed is to use corn starch gel to cover seed after a good spacing has been done. Otherwise, it's just luck that the soil surface will stay moist.

Steve

 

[seedcorn]

In theory, the heirloom genetics are the same. But you are talking of millions (possibly) of genes and gene interactions. What was in the beginning may not be the same 10 generations later. Now the physical look, may be extremely similar due to the fact that that is easily selected for or against. But over time you may see some side benefits that are better or worse. Example-took a okra variety and by hand selecting plants to keep seeds from I have made it a better northern variety. BUT I’m concerned after last year, I may have also selected for less seedling vigor. We’ll see this year.
Breeder rights are given when another line is introduced and then inbred to get a consistent offspring.

 

[heirloomgal]

Is this where the term 'genetic drift' comes in?

 

[donna13350]

In theory, the heirloom genetics are the same. But you are talking of millions (possibly) of genes and gene interactions. What was in the beginning may not be the same 10 generations later. Now the physical look, may be extremely similar due to the fact that that is easily selected for or against. But over time you may see some side benefits that are better or worse. Example-took a okra variety and by hand selecting plants to keep seeds from I have made it a better northern variety. BUT I’m concerned after last year, I may have also selected for less seedling vigor. We’ll see this year.
Breeder rights are given when another line is introduced and then inbred to get a consistent offspring.

Are you changing the actual genetics or is the plant adapting to your climate and soil type?

 

[donna13350]

I was just thinking...in a year of intense drought, many plants die off, leaving the more drought resistant plants for you to save seed from....but you couldn't have changed the genetics in 1 growing season, right?

 

[heirloomgal]

This is the way I understand it @donna13350 ....(especially as an heirloom seed collector!) An heirloom, in a way, is an artificial construct. Nature wants to keep moving and re-assembling. When we have an heirloom variety we are basically cupping our hands around it in it's present expression and saying - please don't move or change! But nature, because of genetic diversity, is shifty. It's skill to keep it in one place, in one unchanging expression. A great example of this is a seed saving acquaintance of mine had been saving yellow pear tomatoes for years in one community garden plot. Over time, she starting noticing the tomatoes were getting less and less yellow, and more and more orangey. The genetics package of that heirloom was shifting on her over time. This can happen sometimes more quickly than others; certain heirloom melons will begin changing their genetic expressions by being simply grown away from the area they were developed in. Their genetic presentation is very tied to where they were selected, move away from that location and the presentation of the genetic package will start shifting away so much so it no longer fits the profile of that 'heirloom' variety. Beans do this too. Nothing inherently keeps stable the genetic package that constitutes an heirloom variety in particular. It's the work of the human, against nature so to speak, that keep its expression pure and true to type - even when there is no crossing going on.

This is part of the reason I collect heirloom varieties, to pay homage to the work that goes into that, the strain against natures forces. It feels like keeping one thing still in a very strong wind.

 

[donna13350]

This is the way I understand it @donna13350 ....(especially as an heirloom seed collector!) An heirloom, in a way, is an artificial construct. Nature wants to keep moving and re-assembling. When we have an heirloom variety we are basically cupping our hands around it in it's present expression and saying - please don't move or change! But nature, because of genetic diversity, is shifty. It's skill to keep it in one place, in one unchanging expression. A great example of this is a seed saving acquaintance of mine had been saving yellow pear tomatoes for years in one community garden plot. Over time, she starting noticing the tomatoes were getting less and less yellow, and more and more orangey. The genetics package of that heirloom was shifting on her over time. This can happen sometimes more quickly than others; certain heirloom melons will begin changing their genetic expressions by being simply grown away from the area they were developed in. Their genetic presentation is very tied to where they were selected, move away from that location and the presentation of the genetic package will start shifting away so much so it no longer fits the profile of that 'heirloom' variety. Beans do this too. Nothing inherently keeps stable the genetic package that constitutes an heirloom variety in particular. It's the work of the human, against nature so to speak, that keep its expression pure and true to type - even when there is no crossing going on.

This is part of the reason I collect heirloom varieties, to pay homage to the work that goes into that, the strain against natures forces. It feels like keeping one thing still in a very strong wind.

Thank you !

 

[Pulsegleaner]

If they don’t grow new seed, then they must of had a huge quantity of seed initially.

Not really, Between relatively few persons availing themselves of the Seed Zoo, and the very high price of the packets (US $6.50 apiece, last time I looked) there weren't many buyers. And by now, at least 90% of the stuff I saw there over the years has sold out, never to return (that was the whole point of mentioning they didn't regenerate, to make it cleat that once something was gone, it was gone for good*)

Part of it is that Joe sort of gadded around, as different heirloom seed companies gave him similar deals. He left Richter's for Baker Creek when they gave him the Explorers Club section, then he tried his own direct site (both, as far as I know, also now defunct). Now I think he just shares seed with those who contact him personally, or are famous enough he can track them down.

*The Volta White corn DID appear again after it sold out, but I think it is likely they just found some packets they had mislaid. It's gone again now.

 

[seedcorn]

Are you changing the actual genetics or is the plant adapting to your climate and soil type?

You are changing genetics. Realize I’m over simplifying what is going on. Yes, a major environmental change can influence what genetics express themselves.