More chicken questions

[Ridgerunner]

I dont believe in magic numbers for much of anything to do with chickens. We keep them in so many different circumstances, in so many different climates, with all kinds of different flock make-ups, different chickens handle confinement better than others or just have different personalities, and we manage them so differently that no one number can cover everyone rom Duluth to Miami, Denver to El Paso, Perth to Inverness, small urban backyard to wide open country living. January or July might make a difference too.

The 4 square feet in the coop with 10 in the run per chickens is a rule of thumb pointed more to someone keeping a few hens in an urban backyard. Most of the rules of thumb on BYC are pointed that way. When you get into a lot of chickens those rules kind of break down. They will keep practically anybody out of trouble in most situations but some of them can be overkill. They are OK as a starting point when you dont have any experience to fall back on. Everyone has to start somewhere.

This is going to be a long post anyway so Ill take the time to explain what I mean by the numbers breaking down. This could apply to a lot of the magic numbers you get on BYC but lets look at space. Say you have 4 chickens and you give each one of them 4 square feet for a total of 16 square feet. If each chicken physically takes up 1 square foot, then you have 4 square feet occupied by chickens with 12 square feet unoccupied for them to explore. If instead you have 40 chickens, each with 4 square feet or 160 square feet total available. The have 120 square feet available for exploration. Thats part of the reason that a commercial egg producer can keep 5000 laying hens with only 2 square feet each, though they still have to trim beaks so they dont eat each other.

Dont get too hung up on coop space versus run space. Space is space. It doesnt matter if it is in a coop, coop and run, or if they free range and sleep in trees. If space is available when they are awake, it doesnt matter where it is.

Im an advocate of providing as much space as you reasonably can. In my opinion, there are three reasons to provide adequate space. I find there are fewer behavioral problems if they are not crowded. Behavioral problems could be feather-picking, fighting, all the way to cannibalism.

Chickens have developed ways to live together in a flock. One important way is in case of conflict, the weaker runs away from the stronger or just avoids then in the first place. If they run away, a chase may be involved to drive the message home. They need enough room to get away if they need to or avoid to start with.

I find I have to work less if they are not overly crowded. Poop management is a good example. Chickens poop a lot. If they are packed in tight it builds up. The more it builds up the more effort you have to spend in managing it and the less control you have over that schedule. Im a firm believer that the less often you have to muck out the entire coop the better.

Ill interrupt the regularly schedules program to get into this. You want pure poop for your compost. Use a droppings board to collect pure poop. They poop a lot while on the roost. Collect that stuff. By removing that from your coop the rest of the coop can go longer without being mucked out. Now back to the regularly scheduled program.

The other thing about space is the tighter you pack them the less flexibility you have in managing a problem. Say you pack them in tight then have a predator problem in your run. Can you leave them locked safely in the coop while you handle that problem? Maybe you really need to be somewhere else for a few hours instead of home rebuilding a fence. If you free range them and one hides a nest, one way to handle that is to lock the flock in the coop and run or maybe just coop until she lays her egg, maybe for a week or more, until she learns where she really should be laying that egg. If you ever want a broody to raise chicks with the flock or ever want to integrate new chickens, the more room you have the easier that is. Go back to the room to run away or avoid thing above.

How you manage them is really important. If you just use a coop only as a safe place for them to spend the night and maybe lay an egg, you really dont need much coop space. Two square feet per bird would be plenty, but if you commit to something like this, you commit to letting them out every day of the year at daybreak, when they wake up. You dont sleep in on a Saturday morning, even if you have the flu. If you take a vacation you need to have someone you can rely on to open it at daybreak. I have a college girl that takes care of mine when I go see my granddaughter. If she had to be there at the break of dawn, Id probably be looking for someone else to take care of them. I have enough space so that is not a problem.

How many days will you have that your run space is not available, maybe due to weather? My chickens dont mind cold weather. They go out in zero degrees weather. Thats as cold as it normally gets here or theyd probably go out in colder weather. But they do not like a cold wind. If a cold wind is blowing they find shelter. You might want to provide some type of wind break near your coop. It doesnt take much, just a protected corner so they can get out of the coop if they want to. Having two separate spaces, in the coop and in the run, really helps in that avoid thing.

Mine generally dont like snow at all when they first see it. They generally dont like anything strange and new. But after a couple of days most of mine will go for a stroll in snow. Most, not necessarily all. A few years back a couple of mine waded through 9 of snow to go check out my compost pile. When you are looking at a wind break, you might consider that snow can blow in from the side through a fence. Just something to consider. My protected area is a corner made by the coop and a solid gate. If a cold wind is blowing they are often crowded in there. My coop is big enough for the number of chickens I have in the winter that they can stay in the coop itself if they want to.

It sounds like you are planning on somewhere else for your next Cornish X experience, but what are your plans down the road for this area? Think ahead. How will you add more laying chickens when your current flocks laying rate really drops, which it will in a few years.

With the space you have in West Virginias climate you could easily add another dozen hens, probably another 15 or even 18 without much chance of serious problems. But instead of thinking how many you can shoehorn in this area, maybe think of how many hens you want then make sure you have adequate space?

Ill get back to some of your other questions in a separate post. Others have been posting while I'm typing so I'm way behind.

 

[Ridgerunner]

My take on roosts. They should be removable. That comes in real handy. Heres how I did mine, just drill some holes and drop a big nail in.

This is my roosts. I usually have two tree limbs up there but I didnt need both at this time.

You can see that they may face either way when on the roost, either toward the wall or away from it. And you can see that some prefer the wider parts of the limb and some the thinner.

You can also see that the rooster can actually bend his toes to grip the tree limb. I dont live where the winters get to 30 degrees below zero. If I did I might feel differently, but when mine squat down on that thin part of the tree limb, their toes are covered with their feathers.

A 2x4 makes a great roost. I really dont think it makes a bit of difference if the wide side or narrow side is up. I do suggest sanding the sharp corners off if you use a board. Partly thats to make it more comfortable to then when they grip it with their toes, but mainly thats to remove splinters.

I suggest the roosts be as low as you can reasonably make them. They do need to be noticeably higher than anything you dont want them to roost on. In your size coop Id suggest 12 higher would be noticeable.

Why as low as reasonable? Part of that has been mentioned. I really dont worry about mine jumping down and hurting their legs but it is possible. Mine spread their wings and fly down which softens the landing some. But thats still a reasonable precaution. Another reason to make them as low as reasonable is that the higher the roosts, the more landing space they need to come down without flying into nests, feeders, waterers, walls, whatever. Your coop is plenty big enough that should not be an issue, but do try to not put feeders and waterers in the landing zone. Give them some clear space to land in.

That brings up another point. Dont put the feeder and waterers where they poop in them from the roosts.

When I have young chickens in the coop that are being integrated, the young ones are usually up on the roosts and the older ones are walking on the coop floor when I let them out in the morning. This's part of the weaker avoiding the stronger. If you ever integrate chickens I think it will really help if the roosts are high enough so that the adults cant just reach up and peck the chicks feet on the roost. Three feet is probably plenty high enough.

The way I suggest you determine the height for your roosts is to figure out where your floor height will be, including litter. Then position your nests. Then make your roosts about 12 higher. Thats as low as you can reasonably make them.

Another consideration is that you need ventilation up high in the coop to remove moisture from their breath and poop and ammonia from their poop. But they dont need to sleep in a direct breeze in winter. Wind chill is a real phenomenon. Remember how I said they dont like a cold wind blowing on them? How you manage this is to have ventilation open in the winter over their heads when they are sleeping. So your roosts need to be low enough that they are out of any cross breeze. In the summer this doesnt matter. The more ventilation the better and breezes hitting them is not an issue at all.

How much roost space do they need? You see how mine spread out in the heat of summer. In winter they squeeze pretty closely together. They really dont take up a lot of space when they settle down, but thats not the only consideration. They need room to get on. Mine spread their wings when they fly up. That takes space to land. As someone else mentioned theyll jostle around to get next to their buddies or away from a bully. Mine will totally knock each other off as they are settling in for the night and that is on the thicker parts of those limbs.

The magic number for roost space I see a lot on BYC is 9 per chicken. That normally works even in those tiny coops barely big enough for 4 hens. It should work well for you in your larger coop with more birds. But again I suggest you dont shoehorn them. Give then as much as you reasonably can.

My chickens are most brutal to each other on the roosts as they are settling in for the night. This is especially true when I have younger chickens in there, either brooder raised chicks or chicks raised by a broody with the flock. The broody will take the chicks to the roosts and protect them. But when she weans them and leaves then to their own devices, it sometimes happens that another hen, usually one pretty low in the pecking order, will leave her regular roosting spot to beat up on the chicks. Several times Ive seen chicks used to roosting on the roosts look for a safer place to roost because of this. Its happened enough that I put up an additional roost over the nests, away from the main roosts and a little bit lower so they could find a safe place that was not inside my nests.

Although they may not use it, I suggest you give them some extra space so your weaker ones can avoid the bullies.

Since these photos I built a permanent brooder under the roosts to use as a droppings board. As long as you cover 12 on either side of the roost you should be OK with a droppings board. Some people scrape their droppings boards daily. I usually scrape mine every two weeks or so. I go by smell. If I can smell it, its time to scrape it. That gives my pure chicken manure for the compost. Great stuff.

 

[bj taylor]

what a super post by ridgerunner! i'm going to look at my roost situation and see if I can get a poop board in there to collect pure poop. to date all mine has been mixed w/shavings.
when I built my coop (I say "I built", in reality it was hubby & his buddy), I looked at coops forever on byc. in the space I had & the number of chicken I thought I would want I designed the coop. parts of it work wonderful. parts of it I would change if I were to do it again.
my big challenge right now is that chicken math thing they talk about. I intended to have 8-10 hens. now I have 5 hens, 1 rooster, 12 babies, and if this broody pulls it off, I will have several more chicks. i'm having to come up w/new housing solution. thak goodness I've got a new goat housing that is over-sized. I can figure something out in there. when this all settles down (if it does), I hope to get back to about 10 birds.

 

[canesisters]

Betting that by this time next year, BJ's (50+) chickens will be all living in the goat shelter and the goats will be in the smaller coop...

Ridgerunner, a VERY, VERY good post! Great info.

 

[MontyJ]

Thanks Ridge! You pretty much covered everything I needed to know. I'll be building the run tomorrow and doing the final coop remodel on Sunday. I'll post some pics when it's finished.

 

[vfem]

Looks like you've gotten TONS of awesome advice. So I have nothing more to add...

I do have to say though, seriously consider that poop board!

 

[Chickie'sMomaInNH]

Monty, your wife sounds too much like me! i have a hen that is about 17 months old now and has been a great momma hen! i hatched her in the house in January 2012 and she always tried to jump in my hand as a chick. once she started learning how to use her wings to help learn to climb up to my shoulders she just didn't stop in her attempts to be on me when i was in the same room! she is one of a very select few i allow to be on my shoulders. if i crouch down or go to sit while in the coop/run she has to get to my lap for a scratch of the neck feathers. she even taught this to the 2 chicks she hatched last year. a few of my cochins also keep hopping up in my lap. they actually fight over who gets the prime spot first! it certainly helps when it comes time to do bug checks and look them over for any wounds if they are tame enough to handle.

just make sure to warn your wife to limit the birds from being any where near the eyes, or mouth. i got pecked by one of my pullets last year and it scratched 50% of my cornea and that was not a fun few days waiting for the pain and blurriness to go away! i still have occasional recurrences of the pain and blurred vision when the weather or house is dry, or i happen to rub my eye during my sleep. i've only had chickens for 4 years now but last year has been the only time i had been pecked in the eye. i've heard other stories of people being pecked and loosing their sight from it. bacteria on the birds beak is a big concern. i had to use an antibiotic ointment for a week just to help relieve the pain when i tried closing my eye. the doc was mostly concerned about the possible bacteria.

 

[MontyJ]

I'm definately doing the poop board Vfem! Anything that cuts down on maintenance and excess bedding in the compost pile is certainly the way to go.

Chickie, I warned DW about the face thing. After seeing what the chicken claws did to my palm last weekend, she understands. I know how bad an eye injury can feel. When I was 9 or 10 some friends and I were throwing "spears" at each other. The "spears" were nothing more than these very hard stemmed tall weeds. The roots looked like a spear tip, so what are boys going to do? Of course mom caught us and gave the usual "Stop that! You're going to put someones eye out," speach. We didn't listen. Sure enough, I ran around the corner of the house and my friends was coming the other way. We both threw our spears. His made a bullseye into my right eye.

After an emergency trip to the hospital, and another to an eye specialist, then wearing patches over both eyes for a week, then a patch over the injured eye for a couple more weeks, and corrective lenses for a year, my vision finally returned to normal.

"You'll put someones eye out." Who knew? Boy, did I hear it from Mom.

 

[Chickie'sMomaInNH]

heh, i had to hear it from my hubby! just as he was saying 'don't let her get too close to your eyes' she went right behind my glasses as i was looking at him! those chickens i notice from a young age that seem to like looking into your eyes i tend to not let get near my face. this girl was too quick and was obsessed with being on my lap and shoulder every chance she got! it must be the shinny reflection they are interested in since most seem fascinated with my rings too.

 

[joz]

I think joz needs some chickens.

Since the guys working on my house destroyed my back stairs, it'll happen soon. When I rebuild the stairs, I'll also be building the open coop/run. My yard is tiny, and I figured, I've already got the structure, why not just cover it all in hardware cloth and let THAT be the coop? It never gets below 30*F here, so I don't need a proper enclosed coop, but will have a roost area with corrugated metal "walls" for windbreaks.

I just hope that 4' wide (x ~20' long) is wide enough to allow for the squabblechases. I'm only going to have 4 birds (or thereabouts... have considered up to 8, but am scaling that back), so I'm guessing it'll be alright.