Original Thompson's Seedless Grape

[joz]

Theoretically, anyway.

To avoid continuing to hijack the Fruit Salad Tree thread, I'm'a just put this over here.

Backstory: I grew up in Eugene, Oregon. I spent a great deal of time at my Mom's parents' house, riding my pony and running around and climbing the mimosa tree and snacking on plums and raspberries and grapes.

I've been trying to figure out what the grapes were for a long time. Dad's dad thought they might be Thompson's Seedless, but they didn't look anything like to me, and I figured he'd mis-heard my description. Granddad had Alzheimers or had died by the time I thought to try to figure out what they were, and Grandma wasn't too reliable either, so it remained a mystery. Now they're all gone. I'm not sure my Mom ever knew what they were.

I described them in another thread earlier today, and Marshall thought they might possibly be the old-style Thompson's Seedless. I wasn't aware there were two types. And so, with my other grandfather's corroborating identification, I believe this may be so.

And the grape vine still existed in August 2011.

Provided I can acquire cuttings... How does one root a grape vine cutting? I'm hoping to be home in July, but that's not exactly "dormant" season. And really, I can't do them anyway. The Deep South has no love for grapes, and I am limited to Muscadines/Scuppernongs. I don't know if my father would want one, or my Mom. It does sound like there's interest here, though.

Alternatively... I wonder if I could do grapes in a container successfully? I know it's a fungus thing here that does most grapes in, but.... Hm.

 

[Chickie'sMomaInNH]

take a cutting about 8" or longer and plunk the bottom into some sand or potting soil. be sure there are at least 3 node/bud sections on each cutting. best to take your cuttings around this time or year while the vine is dormant or just before the buds start forming. i've also had some luck just putting the ends in a jar of water and waiting for them to start growing. doesn't always work because the root does not form the same way if it were in moist soil, and some don't tolerate a lot of water and will rot. :/

this is also a good way to make some extra money if you get a lot of cuttings! i see people selling grape vine cuttings this time of year and even though it is cheaper than a started vine you can get a lot of cuttings and those that don't take you haven't spent a fortune trying to grow!

here's a decent link on how to take cuttings and getting them to root. http://www.eccevines.com/growing-grapes-from-cuttings.html

 

[897tgigvib]

Joz, I have a story about those grapes too.

When I was a kid I worked on a 40 acre vineyard in Sonoma County California. Old fashioned Italian style vineyard, before vineyards became huge owned by bazillionaires.

Old Frank's vineyard had a ranch house, barn, and a bunkhouse. Behind the bunkhouse and area he had some spineless prickly pear cactus he got from Burbank. He also had a large apple tree from burbank that grew near the front of the vineyard. He also had 15 or 20 acres in prunes.

But also behind the bunkhouse, growing along an old fence that went to the main house were the most sweetest little yellow seedless grapes I guess there can ever be! Now I don't know if these were from Burbank. Frank called them Thompson seedless, but even back then in the 1960's and early '70's store bought thompson seedless were not anywhere near as good. Frank sometimes peppered the Zinfandel wine grapes with these grapes to bring the sugar level up.

At no time since then, nor anywhere else since then have I seen nor heard tell of anyone else having these grapes.

Joz, you really need to get hardwood winter cuttings of them. Where it may be possible to take spring growth cuttings of grapes, i really think the "take" percentages will be low.

Basically as Chickies momma said is how to do it, course each person's exact way might be a touch different here or there.

See if you can have your kinfolk or friends mail the winter hardwood cuttings to you. This may well be critical because these very special grapes may be on the verge of extinction.

My way is always to use several methods, so I have first dibs on saying also use chickies momma's method. Grape cuttings strike best when taken before the buds sprout.

They should range in thickness of a pencil or up to twice that thick. They should have good color to them, and that papery bark should be as intact as possible. They can and should be cut on both ends, top and bottom, using very good and sharp scissor action pruners, not the crushing anvil kind. Felco makes them right.

That top cut can be made square and flat. Top cut is made after cutting the vine off. Carefully handle it, and look for sections that have between 2 and 4 nice looking buds.

I have not noticed that they need to be at least 8" long, but go ahead and make some that long or longer. Don't worry if you have some 5" to 8" though. Length might be a variety preference, and since this variety is unknown about how well it takes root, even more reason to try lots of ways.

Now, I set a bunch of them in like a 5 gallon pot, tons of drain holes, good compost and or potting soil. Since you are where fungus or something gets a lot of grapes, go ahead and go all out to stop fungus. This is a situation where careful use of copper based anti fungals is I believe acceptable. A 5 gallon pot can have like 8 cuttings in it.

Set your pots of cuttings in a warm place, but not hot. Also, spray mist them right on the buds daily. That is their only water source besides what they have in them. Some like to add stuff to the spray water, ok, but if you do add fish emulsion, use very very little, hardly even to color the water.

The buds will open. Spray them twice a day. Make sure they have afternoon shade. Go ahead and continue to ensure the sterile and good soil has remained moist. As summer progresses they will be thirsty more often.

By summer's end they should have a foot or more of growth. Each is ready to be put in it's own 5 gallon pot on a nice day the next winter.

===

You may want to graft them onto one of the awesome grape rootstock varieties available these days which are immune to fungus.

 

[so lucky]

I wonder if the University of Oregon would be interested in checking them out?

 

[897tgigvib]

They might. Or U.C.Davis might too.

I believe they may have more sugar than Pinot.

 

[Chickie'sMomaInNH]

there are quite a few horticulturist in Oregon that might be interested in finding this grape for you. i was searching for info on Thompson's seedless last night and then thought about looking for cuttings and i came across bunchgrapes.com and a guy named Lon Rombough. i found out from his site that there is a grape that originally came from my city! John Viola grapes! i would think i'd have seen someone trying to sell these locally but so far i'm not finding them around. :/

i'm just wondering how easy it would be for someone to contact the new owners of the property and see if they may still have the plants to collect, or if they would be willing to let someone take a look for them.

 

[joz]

Well, see, I know the address, of course, and can just write a letter.

But, the original purchaser is still the owner. And I know who that is (as googling the address returned the current business license). So I poked around and found his email.

I'm going to see if he minds if I take some cuttings, then send my StepMom over to do so, if she doesn't mind. She's great with ornamentals and flowers, and should be able to root some cuttings for me. Hopefully.

EDIT: I've been granted permission to take the cuttings.

 

[Chickie'sMomaInNH]

that is awesome news!

 

[897tgigvib]

Joz, you may very well be saving a very special and good variety from extinction!

I do hope you can also get some rootstock recommended for your region, and see if you can find a nearby person or yourself to do some bud grafts also.

I do know that bud graft material, the scion part, starts out looking like an extra long piece for a cutting. It will have 4 to 6 nice juicy buds on it and will be a bit thicker.

I also know that several of these bud scions cuttings are loosely tied together and wrapped in very moist to wet newspaper, and are kept refrigerated and dark, and given good ventilation and checked to ensure moistness and no mold.

I can ask Lee Martinelli, probably Junior, what the exact temperature and moisture is they are kept at.

The idea is to keep them basically dormant until AFTER the rootstock has sprouted.

>>>NEW BUD DORMANT, ROOTSTOCK GROWING<<<

Now, I have only ever assisted. For me to try telling someone how to bud graft would be wrong. Add to that, it may be done differently in your climate.

I know that grafting tape looks like that white plumber tape but is more like electrical tape, thinner, more flexible, nicer adhesive, and is designed to remain on cleanly for a year or more.

Very likely in the next month or 2, perhaps he will come up to the lake, and I'll try to have him type up a post about bud grafting grapes. If you enjoy affordable fine wine you may have had some he and his family have grown. BTW, the potfull of rootstocks I started are going to their youngster so she can start her very own first row of grapes and so she can learn to do grafting. Lee senior was one of my agriculture class instructors in high school. I don't know how many generations of their family have been grafting and growing grapes, but I think it's 4 going on 5.

So all I'm thinking is please use every method possible to save this variety.

 

[so lucky]

Just FYI, I have had grapevine wreaths sprout leaves, when they are harvested and used green. Maybe it won't be that difficult.