have you considered an earth sheltered house? Completely off the grid?? Nothing pisses me off more than know the middle east, etc has the USA by the scrotum as far as oil goes. I refuse to buy anything else that runs on gasoline because I know it probably came from over seas. I will not support those people. Does anybody realize what would happen if they just got pissed and said they won't send the USA anymore oil?? THe country would COLLAPSE!!! and it our gov'ts fault.
Self-sufficiency . . . have you thought about it?
- Thread starter digitS'
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Rosalind
Deeply Rooted
Well, I ask you: How have falling food prices subsidized the disproportionate price increases of other stuff?
In my area, that would be housing, which costs a king's ransom. Also taxes--this ain't called Taxachusetts for nothin'. Water processing is more expensive, as in New England we have to deal with the acidity and mercury content caused by coal plant emissions in the South and Midwest. Gas prices, for sure.
I would say, if we did not have falling food prices, would we have had the rising housing and water costs, or rising taxes? Would we even have the 300,000,000 population that we have today? Or would people have looked at the grocery bills, the housing bills, the other inescapable aspects of living, and concluded that they could not afford to have more than one or two kids after family planning became widely available in the 1960s? Part of the reason we are able to support high costs of gas, housing, etc. is because we don't have a food bill--if we couldn't afford more gas for the car, would we have more fuel-efficient cars or more public transportation now? Wouldn't the 1979 energy crisis have pinched budgets so far that there would have been more pressure for public transportation, repeal of zoning laws, more automobile industry regulation?
I guess my point is basically that cheap prices in one necessity certainly subsidize something, but there's no reason to assume that it is subsidizing things which are not also necessities--there are plenty of necessities that can also be subsidized, and you can find any number of economic pinches where higher food costs would have pushed the crises that much harder or that much sooner. There do exist plenty of budgets that are already wrung dry even considering the artificial costs of food, and pushing those harder will result in serious social problems.
In my area, that would be housing, which costs a king's ransom. Also taxes--this ain't called Taxachusetts for nothin'. Water processing is more expensive, as in New England we have to deal with the acidity and mercury content caused by coal plant emissions in the South and Midwest. Gas prices, for sure.
I would say, if we did not have falling food prices, would we have had the rising housing and water costs, or rising taxes? Would we even have the 300,000,000 population that we have today? Or would people have looked at the grocery bills, the housing bills, the other inescapable aspects of living, and concluded that they could not afford to have more than one or two kids after family planning became widely available in the 1960s? Part of the reason we are able to support high costs of gas, housing, etc. is because we don't have a food bill--if we couldn't afford more gas for the car, would we have more fuel-efficient cars or more public transportation now? Wouldn't the 1979 energy crisis have pinched budgets so far that there would have been more pressure for public transportation, repeal of zoning laws, more automobile industry regulation?
I guess my point is basically that cheap prices in one necessity certainly subsidize something, but there's no reason to assume that it is subsidizing things which are not also necessities--there are plenty of necessities that can also be subsidized, and you can find any number of economic pinches where higher food costs would have pushed the crises that much harder or that much sooner. There do exist plenty of budgets that are already wrung dry even considering the artificial costs of food, and pushing those harder will result in serious social problems.
Reinbeau
Deeply Rooted
Well, I think the serious social problems are caused by a complete lack of self-reliance, and the expectation that the government will/should take care of everything. Too many want 'subsidies' for all manner of things that they should work for and provide for themselves. My problem with the government taking care of me is that then they think they can manage my life, tell me what I should and shouldn't do, etc. That isn't what being an American and living in this great country is all about. I can and will take care of myself.
The mortgage industry is collapsing due to greed on both sides - brokers who were making commissions hand over fist selling mortgages to people who were buying houses way beyond their means. Both sides are guilty here, and who is going to bail it all out? Us, actually, the US taxpayer. I live in Taxachusetts, too, but I manage - heck, I even cut our income by over 50% last year by not going back into the mainstream workforce and striking out on my own as a Pilates instructor (now there's a tenuous market in bad times!
). Things are tight around here, but we'll be ok, because our home is modest, paid for, we're not eating into the equity to buy things, we don't have thousands in credit card debt. I'm not bragging, I think we live pretty well, though, and we aren't going to lose our shirts next week because of a market turndown.
I look at younger people coming up through the ranks with 300K of mortgage debt (on a house that isn't worth what they paid six months ago), 30K in credit card debt, a new Honda and probably their other car is a new SUV of some sort that cost way more than my house did and I just can't believe they live like that.
Maybe I'm just an old fuddy-duddy.....
The mortgage industry is collapsing due to greed on both sides - brokers who were making commissions hand over fist selling mortgages to people who were buying houses way beyond their means. Both sides are guilty here, and who is going to bail it all out? Us, actually, the US taxpayer. I live in Taxachusetts, too, but I manage - heck, I even cut our income by over 50% last year by not going back into the mainstream workforce and striking out on my own as a Pilates instructor (now there's a tenuous market in bad times!
). Things are tight around here, but we'll be ok, because our home is modest, paid for, we're not eating into the equity to buy things, we don't have thousands in credit card debt. I'm not bragging, I think we live pretty well, though, and we aren't going to lose our shirts next week because of a market turndown. I look at younger people coming up through the ranks with 300K of mortgage debt (on a house that isn't worth what they paid six months ago), 30K in credit card debt, a new Honda and probably their other car is a new SUV of some sort that cost way more than my house did and I just can't believe they live like that.
Maybe I'm just an old fuddy-duddy.....
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digitS'
Garden Master
Are you sure, Karen? I'm not trying to contradict, just curious if someone has done the math.momsgarden said:
We have less than 20 inches of precipitation here and most of that comes as snow. If I caught ALL of it and applied that water as irrigation at the rate of 1 1/2 inches/week (as is customary in my gardening), I wouldn't make it thru 14 weeks of the growing season. That might fill the need for most vegetables BUT my garden covers many, many more square feet than my roof does.
Now, this is assuming that I use a composting toilet, drink not one drop of that water, and never wash my clothes or bathe . . .
Steve
Mothergoat
Chillin' In The Garden
I really enjoyed reading all the way through this thread. So many ideas, so many perspectives. Thank you.
I live the way I do because...I like it. I have goats and I milk them because I have severe digestion and stomach problems and the goat milk and yoghurt seem to help a fair amount. Plus, I just like the animals and I like caring for them. We have chickens because...I like watching them strut around. I like breeding for better and prettier birds. And I like the eggs. We could eat the birds and goats if we had to...but I don't like to so I sell the extras. I garden because it's a favorite way to get exercise, it's a restorative for me both mentally and physically, & the fresh produce tastes better than anything else. Plus, I can annoy my friends and family with all those extra zucchinis.
I recycle, re-use, and find ways to reduce my use of "value-added" stuff like processed and overpackaged foods, burgers and fries, new clothes and other household "stuff." I am the yard sale queen and a Goodwill Stores maven. I'm glad I'm not the only one to admit that I do a lot of these things because I'm cheap (frugal!), and I like to save money and cheat the corporations that would control our daily lives. In my defense, I also feel I have a responsibility to use less of the resources that can't be replaced, and to do less harm to my planet.
I had to laugh at the comment on self-sufficient fantasies!
I'm reminded of Marie Antoinette who liked to play milkmaid at Versailles. So true, in some cases. Not in yours, though, Missing-thenorth, because you have truly been there, done that, for real. And when I am out in a drenching downpour in the dark after work, sliding around in bootsucking mud while 10 hungry goats are crowding around me to get at the chow I'm carrying in two full heavy buckets, I do wonder at myself. I have given up canning for the most part; prime canning season here is early September, late August, and as a sp ed teacher that is my busiest time of year. I do like knowing that I could do it, however. And I may do it again, some day.
I guess what I am trying to say is that for those of us non-millionaires who can't afford to buy everything without working, we do have to work hard for all that we need, not to mention adding on some of what we want into the budget. There is just no getting around that word "work." I choose to produce some of my food, and that also takes care of some recreation and health needs in my case. (I'm just crazy enough to enjoy mucking out barns)...and I feel fortunate to live in a place where I can meet all of my own needs through employment plus home production, and a little help from above
. I hope to be a little bit of an example to my kids: that we should stop squandering our resources in order to leave a little more for those who are without enough to get by for today, as well as leave a little for the generations to come. Some people can do this very tidily in a city apartment. Some of us would rather get down and dirty. But I am happy that it is on so many of our minds, it gives me hope.
Sorry for my rambling. I enjoy hearing what all of you have to say.
-Linda :bouquet
I live the way I do because...I like it. I have goats and I milk them because I have severe digestion and stomach problems and the goat milk and yoghurt seem to help a fair amount. Plus, I just like the animals and I like caring for them. We have chickens because...I like watching them strut around. I like breeding for better and prettier birds. And I like the eggs. We could eat the birds and goats if we had to...but I don't like to so I sell the extras. I garden because it's a favorite way to get exercise, it's a restorative for me both mentally and physically, & the fresh produce tastes better than anything else. Plus, I can annoy my friends and family with all those extra zucchinis.
I recycle, re-use, and find ways to reduce my use of "value-added" stuff like processed and overpackaged foods, burgers and fries, new clothes and other household "stuff." I am the yard sale queen and a Goodwill Stores maven. I'm glad I'm not the only one to admit that I do a lot of these things because I'm cheap (frugal!), and I like to save money and cheat the corporations that would control our daily lives. In my defense, I also feel I have a responsibility to use less of the resources that can't be replaced, and to do less harm to my planet.
I had to laugh at the comment on self-sufficient fantasies!
I'm reminded of Marie Antoinette who liked to play milkmaid at Versailles. So true, in some cases. Not in yours, though, Missing-thenorth, because you have truly been there, done that, for real. And when I am out in a drenching downpour in the dark after work, sliding around in bootsucking mud while 10 hungry goats are crowding around me to get at the chow I'm carrying in two full heavy buckets, I do wonder at myself. I have given up canning for the most part; prime canning season here is early September, late August, and as a sp ed teacher that is my busiest time of year. I do like knowing that I could do it, however. And I may do it again, some day.
I guess what I am trying to say is that for those of us non-millionaires who can't afford to buy everything without working, we do have to work hard for all that we need, not to mention adding on some of what we want into the budget. There is just no getting around that word "work." I choose to produce some of my food, and that also takes care of some recreation and health needs in my case. (I'm just crazy enough to enjoy mucking out barns)...and I feel fortunate to live in a place where I can meet all of my own needs through employment plus home production, and a little help from above
. I hope to be a little bit of an example to my kids: that we should stop squandering our resources in order to leave a little more for those who are without enough to get by for today, as well as leave a little for the generations to come. Some people can do this very tidily in a city apartment. Some of us would rather get down and dirty. But I am happy that it is on so many of our minds, it gives me hope.Sorry for my rambling. I enjoy hearing what all of you have to say.
-Linda :bouquet
Rosalind
Deeply Rooted
Oh, I agree, especially on a national scale, but I also think we are past the point of no return: At this point in our economy and population size, we cannot feasibly become isolationist in our economic policies anymore.
As an academic exercise, use any spreadsheet program and the local ag colleges' yield estimates to calculate how much acreage, both arable and non-arable, you would require to be 100% self-sufficient in your family. Add up all your groceries, clothing, water use, firewood, and candlelight, then calculate the crop yields, the number of animals, the range of the bees if you're using beeswax or the tallow yield of pigs, the water purification systems and septic leachfield. Then calculate the amount of time you would have to spend to harvest enough to eat. If you've done some textile crafts, try to estimate the amount of time it would take you to process fiber into finished products. A small nuclear family simply cannot do it, even if all the kids work. The labor needs for fuel, textiles, and fat end up being too great for mom, dad, and a couple of older kids--you can find an optimal number of adult workers per household based on the local crop yields per acre, and I promise you it will be much, much more than currently live in your house. The acreage needs are far and away more than actually exist. You can find local inefficiencies that could perhaps be improved: For example, quite a bit of our local arable land has McMansions and lawns on it, instead of food, while the rocky bits are left to be "scenic." Marshy areas are drained and filled, instead of being used for aquaculture.
The whole point of why Malthusian population dynamics were proven wrong is because of globalization and subsidized transportation and cheap oil: The conclusion in the 1970s was the Technology/Capitalism (or some combination thereof) Will Save Us. If you start looking strictly at renewable resources, then you're back to a Malthusian population dynamic, which assumes a closed system of more or less Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium. When these sorts of population dynamics have played out, they are not often in humanity's favor--Jared Diamond's book Collapse details quite a few.
dbjay417
Garden Ornament
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My father is working on making ethanol from breadfruit. We have two massive trees in our yard that give hndreds of fruit a year. They are very starchy and have a texture like potatoes, and very little financial value.
the only problem is that ethanol is essentially shine, and the ATF and FBI are all over independant producers.
but then shine is as popular here in PR as it is anywhere in the US. Only difference is here on the island shine is made from sugar cane, instead of wheat or corn.
the only problem is that ethanol is essentially shine, and the ATF and FBI are all over independant producers.
but then shine is as popular here in PR as it is anywhere in the US. Only difference is here on the island shine is made from sugar cane, instead of wheat or corn.
Where do you see your self in 5 yrs?? Has anybody ever heard of earth sheltered houses and completely living without the need for anybody else? For food, clothes, etc.
BTW- they do have cars that run on h2o and since water never goes away(just changes from solid to liquid or gas) no pollution.
Since the gov't can force companies to comply to national standards and we have the technology NOW to which to solar or wind or hydro power, Why doesn't the gov't FORCE companies to do it NOW??? Other countries are completely gasoline powered carless, it it only took 10 yrs.
We are doing this to ourselves and to those who claim that global warming is a scam, as you self this??
What if YOU are wrong???
BTW- they do have cars that run on h2o and since water never goes away(just changes from solid to liquid or gas) no pollution.
Since the gov't can force companies to comply to national standards and we have the technology NOW to which to solar or wind or hydro power, Why doesn't the gov't FORCE companies to do it NOW??? Other countries are completely gasoline powered carless, it it only took 10 yrs.
We are doing this to ourselves and to those who claim that global warming is a scam, as you self this??
What if YOU are wrong???
patandchickens
Deeply Rooted
I am sorry to be a party pooper but see several previous posts regarding the general infeasability of more than a handful of fortunately-situated people being able to live 100% self-sufficient for food, clothes, etc.sbox said:
Summary: there is not nearly enough arable land on earth for anything like its existing population to live in self-sufficient households. Also, self-sufficient households generally only work if there are a lot more people in 'em than in most modern N American households. Plus, attempting total self-sufficiency is really inefficient in many ways (many products have major economies of scale, such that it works far better to have specialists in a community rather than everyone does everything themselves).
BTW, earth bermed houses are nice in some regions but are probably not the most efficient in others. Consider the virtues of cordwood, straw bale, rammed-earth, adobe, etc types of construction as well, if this is something you are contemplating or promoting.
Er. "They" may. You know, uh, "them"
However, nobody has ever produced one for public inspection that was not fraudulent, so it is not like you can just go out and buy or build a water-powered car, if indeed such a thing ever existed. Which countries would those be? I know the idea has been floated in the UK and I think somewhere else (ah - google sez Norway) but I do not think it has actually been done anywhere, has it? And if it were, whatcha gonna do instead - there's absolutely no way to produce that much biodeisel *and* current food production, and what about all the batteries and electricity needed for electric cars. There's hydrogen I suppose, but the technology just is not sufficient at present. Perhaps "they" should get their water-powered cars out of hiding, eh
Cheers,
Pat
Nobody ever poops at my party, I wouldn't allow it.
100% self-sufficiency (totally) is possible but not probable and is to some extent inconvenient. I would like to be a dependent as possible but I do want my washer and dryer.
honda has a water powered car, check out the website. There has been commercials for it too.
Another company makes a totally electric one called a Tesla, it's faster than a Porche.Not cheap though, but they are working on one that is around $20,000. Again look at the website. Google: Tesla electric car.
Already built a earth sheltered home for an other couple in Oklahoma. Worked out great for them. House is almost completely underground and they do not have a/c or heat unit. Stays 65-70 degrees year round. They do not have to worry about tornados (we get them). They have a well and septic. They are on the grid but with the wind here, whey will be switching over to wind power soon. At that point, no utility bills either, except satellite for internet cable and phone service. Cost for just the house was about 20,000 and another 20,000 for 10 acres. House and land are paid for in full with the proceeds of their previous house. No house payment, credit card bill, car payments, outrageous utility bills at age 42, not bad in my book.
it is Iceland that has completely banned anything but HYDROGEN cars in their country. My mistake. It was on the National news. Go to ABC they still have the story on there, I just checked
i love the internet. info at your fingertips!
So, is has indeed been done and is working wonderfully for them. Can't imagine the oilman we call Bush would have anything to do with the snails pace in the independence from foreign oil.
Biodiesel is stupid on many levels.
Sorry about the grammer, punctuation, etc in my posts. I am usually doing 20 things at once and really didn't think the conversation in the forum was that formal.
I live in a town of 70,000, where the median house is 250, 000 (pretty high for Oklahoma standards) and more than half of the adults are college grads, including my husband and I.
We are trying now to live as much as possible as self reliant and still be sane. Recycling, reusing, etc and NOT trying to keep up with the "Jones". No credit debit, no car payments, etc. Hard to explain to those who don't have the desire to not work your butt off all your life just to have the basics or to have enough "stuff" that you don't feel like the freak show of the town.
I noticed you are from Canada, this explains alot of your "infeasibility" issues. You don't give human kind credit where credit is due.
Cheers to you!
Shannon
100% self-sufficiency (totally) is possible but not probable and is to some extent inconvenient. I would like to be a dependent as possible but I do want my washer and dryer.
honda has a water powered car, check out the website. There has been commercials for it too.
Another company makes a totally electric one called a Tesla, it's faster than a Porche.Not cheap though, but they are working on one that is around $20,000. Again look at the website. Google: Tesla electric car.
Already built a earth sheltered home for an other couple in Oklahoma. Worked out great for them. House is almost completely underground and they do not have a/c or heat unit. Stays 65-70 degrees year round. They do not have to worry about tornados (we get them). They have a well and septic. They are on the grid but with the wind here, whey will be switching over to wind power soon. At that point, no utility bills either, except satellite for internet cable and phone service. Cost for just the house was about 20,000 and another 20,000 for 10 acres. House and land are paid for in full with the proceeds of their previous house. No house payment, credit card bill, car payments, outrageous utility bills at age 42, not bad in my book.
it is Iceland that has completely banned anything but HYDROGEN cars in their country. My mistake. It was on the National news. Go to ABC they still have the story on there, I just checked
i love the internet. info at your fingertips!So, is has indeed been done and is working wonderfully for them. Can't imagine the oilman we call Bush would have anything to do with the snails pace in the independence from foreign oil.
Biodiesel is stupid on many levels.
Sorry about the grammer, punctuation, etc in my posts. I am usually doing 20 things at once and really didn't think the conversation in the forum was that formal.
I live in a town of 70,000, where the median house is 250, 000 (pretty high for Oklahoma standards) and more than half of the adults are college grads, including my husband and I.
We are trying now to live as much as possible as self reliant and still be sane. Recycling, reusing, etc and NOT trying to keep up with the "Jones". No credit debit, no car payments, etc. Hard to explain to those who don't have the desire to not work your butt off all your life just to have the basics or to have enough "stuff" that you don't feel like the freak show of the town.
I noticed you are from Canada, this explains alot of your "infeasibility" issues. You don't give human kind credit where credit is due.
Cheers to you!
Shannon
