Soil building or soil depletion

[Dirtmechanic]

Just some FYI that might surprise you:
http://www.cornandsoybeandigest.com...m=email&elq2=b1f8866848af44049ae648d881d864b3
"What is your definition for soil health?
Over the past several years, state and federal agencies and researchers have been trying to come up with a definition for soil health. The United States Department of Agriculture’s Natural Resources Conservation Service defines soil health as “the continued capacity of soil to function as a vital living ecosystem that sustains plants, animals, and humans.” Another definition that is embraced by many is the improved function in terms of crop yield response to inputs, such as fertilizer efficiency.

The challenge is that farmers, researchers and general homeowners could all view soil health differently because soil function means different things to them.To a farmer, the primary function of the soil could be to hold enough water, sustain enough nutrients and provide pest control to produce sustainable crops. To a soil microbiologist, the primary function of soil could be the media that provides food and shelter to soil organisms. To the general homeowner, the primary function of soil could be to provide the nutrients for their lawn and garden. So the question becomes which is correct and why? The answer to that question is not simple. I propose that the answer is that it depends on who you are and what you expect the soil to do for you.

Regardless of your definition of soil health, it is important that the soil biota is protected and nurtured. There are four ideas defined by USDA-NRCS that everyone should consider to ensure healthy soil biota:

1. Keep the soil covered as much as possible.
2. Disturb the soil as little as possible.
3. Keep plants growing throughout the year to feed the soil.
4. Diversify as much as possible using crop rotation and cover crops."

To learn more about how you can build up soil health visit the Soil Health Nexus or USDA-NRCS Soil Health site.

This article was published by Michigan State University Extension.

I have to make a point here, that this is good advice from Michigan. Do I think this all applies to me here in the southern transition zone on clay soil? No.

1. Keep the soil covered as much as possible.
-This would absolutely kill me off. Why? because we are so wet already, and we either use raised beds, which would benefit by this or we plant in ground, in which case the clay will be amended and tilled. Once amended, especially with cow manure, the organic layer is itself sort of a big cap anyway. Our worst problem is fungus and insects. Both of which literally need to be killed back in the soil to give a growing window of time before they regather late in the season and press home their attack. If an inch of rain per week is nominal, you will understand that our 60+ can cause trouble when it is hot out, and we average 90f across the summer.


2. Disturb the soil as little as possible.
-This is not going to work with all plants on clay. Tomatoes and other plants are not natural here and need some help. Plus, liming is the only way we can keep the root tips from blunting into acidic soil, and for gardening it is best tilled in or use a raised bed. Yes you can soften the soil with molasses and other things to make a soil softening fungal mat. But the fungus eats your plants too, so I have to be more careful and not overfeed.

3. Keep plants growing throughout the year to feed the soil.
-I have tried to continue to learn about what feeding the soil means. So far that has taken the humble form of trying to understand cow manure, which is known to be the best all around fertilizer. But why? Things like high protein and carbohydrate levels. Well is that not what we also feed upon? And these amino acids that are in the proteins that make them up, are they not also the precursors to at least 3 of the 6 most commonly known phytohormones? And carbs, well thats carbon based food too. Bacteria and other things eat it. Keeping things growing is almost like not disturbing the soil. The only undisturbed soil I have ever seen working is under the forrest litter around my house. We have no yard on 3 sides, its all hardwoods. In an ecosystem like that where the leaves and twigs and dead animal and dead insects make up natural compost, sure, in fact do not remove too much humic leaf material or you starve the plants that are there, on clay anyway. And letting plants rot in place? No way. Baad Idea in my world. Even if they are beans and chock full of protein. If you destroy the mycorrizal web pulling and tilling, it is still at least innoculated, provided you do not poison the soil like they were doing with the methyl bromide that was then turning into a gas in the soil before leaving. I use thyme oil to kill nematodes. Nasty little critters.

4. Diversify as much as possible using crop rotation and cover crops."
- As far as nitrigen fixers being followed by nitrogen takers, sure thing. Makes sense if you want the plant to use or to eat. But like the above questions, it is still a manipulation of nature or you are basically walking in the woods picking food, which has a very low density of production and cannot really compare to the tomato production I can get in my small patch my manipulating the soil.

So No, I do not see some of that advice being universal, but on some different better drained soils, and at lower temperatures with less annual rainfall then absolutely I can see it as reasonable advice.

 

[seedcorn]

This is what I find interesting. Different environments, different methods, all for essentially the same results.

Tell me about thyme oil for nematodes.

 

[bobm]

I have to make a point here, that this is good advice from Michigan. Do I think this all applies to me here in the southern transition zone on clay soil? No.

1. Keep the soil covered as much as possible.
-This would absolutely kill me off. Why? because we are so wet already, and we either use raised beds, which would benefit by this or we plant in ground, in which case the clay will be amended and tilled. Once amended, especially with cow manure, the organic layer is itself sort of a big cap anyway. Our worst problem is fungus and insects. Both of which literally need to be killed back in the soil to give a growing window of time before they regather late in the season and press home their attack. If an inch of rain per week is nominal, you will understand that our 60+ can cause trouble when it is hot out, and we average 90f across the summer.


2. Disturb the soil as little as possible.
-This is not going to work with all plants on clay. Tomatoes and other plants are not natural here and need some help. Plus, liming is the only way we can keep the root tips from blunting into acidic soil, and for gardening it is best tilled in or use a raised bed. Yes you can soften the soil with molasses and other things to make a soil softening fungal mat. But the fungus eats your plants too, so I have to be more careful and not overfeed.

3. Keep plants growing throughout the year to feed the soil.
-I have tried to continue to learn about what feeding the soil means. So far that has taken the humble form of trying to understand cow manure, which is known to be the best all around fertilizer. But why? Things like high protein and carbohydrate levels. Well is that not what we also feed upon? And these amino acids that are in the proteins that make them up, are they not also the precursors to at least 3 of the 6 most commonly known phytohormones? And carbs, well thats carbon based food too. Bacteria and other things eat it. Keeping things growing is almost like not disturbing the soil. The only undisturbed soil I have ever seen working is under the forrest litter around my house. We have no yard on 3 sides, its all hardwoods. In an ecosystem like that where the leaves and twigs and dead animal and dead insects make up natural compost, sure, in fact do not remove too much humic leaf material or you starve the plants that are there, on clay anyway. And letting plants rot in place? No way. Baad Idea in my world. Even if they are beans and chock full of protein. If you destroy the mycorrizal web pulling and tilling, it is still at least innoculated, provided you do not poison the soil like they were doing with the methyl bromide that was then turning into a gas in the soil before leaving. I use thyme oil to kill nematodes. Nasty little critters.

4. Diversify as much as possible using crop rotation and cover crops."
- As far as nitrigen fixers being followed by nitrogen takers, sure thing. Makes sense if you want the plant to use or to eat. But like the above questions, it is still a manipulation of nature or you are basically walking in the woods picking food, which has a very low density of production and cannot really compare to the tomato production I can get in my small patch my manipulating the soil.

So No, I do not see some of that advice being universal, but on some different better drained soils, and at lower temperatures with less annual rainfall then absolutely I can see it as reasonable advice.

What is good for the goose is NOT always good for the gander as most of the hard line organic folks keep preaching.

 

[Dirtmechanic]

I have a small plot some 20 years old now. Once I realized how bad the problem of RKN had become, I realized all my composting and non sterile inputs had to go, and I needed to sterilize the soil at a minimum to start over. Well there were 2 points about that that did not work, one is the nema get too deep to actually get to them and the other is there is no way for me to gas my soil in a neighborhood. I had to keep looking. I was also having a hell of a time with fungus also. The two problems led me to Humagro Promax and after that first season I was hooked. The reading I did on thyme indicated strong antifungal properties and these people were using it to catch the nema in the transitional phases in between 3 points of the life cycle. Evidently the suckers have an egg or cocoon that must resemble those dragons eggs on game of thrones. Impervious and impossible to get to them in the egg, but when they pop out, thyme tears them up from reproducing. Once they pierce the plant they are hard to get to as well. The instruction said to till in the product so I did. I read that nema reproduce as low as once every 90 days when it is cold, but can go once every 20 days when warm. That makes them hard to get to as well. I started tilling in the winter, and did it 4 or 5 times that first year. Then the product is used as a foliar spray once the plants are in. It works its way down from the top. I was spraying every 2 weeks during the season. Toward the end, I slacked off. If you get on it and stay on it, you will be shocked at how much early blight and other problems like nema just never get a foothold. But if you stop you will play hell getting the plant health back once those lower parts are attacked. had 32 tomato plants and my wife actually yelled at me to stop bringing in so many tomatoes. Squash, cucumber, okra, all of it. See the garden was not doing that well before. I do not have to plant as many to get enough so I can go for some diversity now which is more fun.
What really hooked me was the humic components in the product. You could mix your own thyme oil, but it is strong, what they call a hot oil, and very little is needed. I believe that label on the HP says 2% thyme but I would have to check. I read white papers wher they used it up to 3.5% in petri dishes in a lab testing against a bunch of nasties. I sure would not just mix up a batch and go spraying with homemade unless it got tested first.

 

[ducks4you]

Interesting discussion. I am always ready to make my soil better. I am not sure that you shouldn't disturb the soil. All I know is that SOMETHING will grow in your soil, good or bad, unless it is poisoned! As I understand it certain weeds that grow will tell you about your soil. For instance purslane tells you that you have a fertile soil bed. Chickweed will fill in where you have killed off the grass. Saplings are opportunistic and need to be taken down where you do not want them while they are small, or else they are harder to deal with later. Last October I had a friend take down a volunteer tree that I didn't deal with. The base was over 3 ft diameter and it was growing next to a pine tree that I DID want. I will let the stump rot and/or kill off any attempt for the tree to regenerate from the base, as they try to do. I have been successful killing saplings by digging down 4 inches, sawing off below ground, shoving in cardboard and covering with a brick. Dead next year without herbicides.
We have different soils in different parts of the country. In IL--reminded of this today with 35 mph winds and winter temperatures sinking down to single digits tonight--we lose some of our insects, good and bad, to the winter weather. One of the U of Illinois Extension educators has become a big proponent of pollinators and growing plants that nurture helpful predatory insects. I KNOW that we have them. I have many times seen tomato hornworms on my plants that are themselves covered with those white eggs from a predatory wasp. The young wasps eat the hornworm after hatching. I see plenty of praying mantis every summer. I am offering an environment that they like. I want to plant more plants that also attract more birds that eat insects that attack my plants. We already have barn swallows that nest in the barn, but the barn is the attraction, NOT the garden and they consume mosquitoes.
MY insect problem is primarily squash bugs and squash vine borers. If you have a solution for THOSE, we need to talk.

 

[flowerbug]

@Dirtmechanic not having to deal with RKN i have for years corresponded with a friend in the middle part of FL who contends with those creatures.

his best result so far, is predatory nematodes, he has to reinoculate once every 2-4yrs but that has done well for him.

he also speaks of fungal problems which he deals with mostly be growing and harvesting and then removing plants as soon as they are done with the main thrust of their life cycle. he does not grow certain plants during the hottest parts of the season but waits until cooler weather to grow them, etc.

my own experiences is that some issues are just left alone. they don't need to be treated. tomatoes here get late blight. i don't mind it, by the time they're getting it we've usually got enough.

we have clay and we have plenty of rain at times too. fungal issues to me say transition to food forest as the forest soil is more naturally fungal dominated and that's how it will be in any warm climate with adequate moisture. you can work with clearings within such a system to grow vegetables and fruits, but i would avoid that as much as possible because the more time you have bare soil exposed the more likely it gets washed away by heavy rains.

the further south you go the less soil carbon you will be able to keep naturally. that is why places that have jungles tend to turn sterile when people use them to repeatedly grow agricultural/annual crops instead of growing forest/perennial crops instead. combined with overpopulation and poor control over the forest you end up with places like Haiti... it can be recovered in time, but it takes a lot of effort to do it.

 

[catjac1975]

Here's an interesting take on composting....

I've used urine before in my gardening, but as a side dressing and not on compost. After seeing this vid, I think it would be interesting to do a little experiment. I'm getting some square bales of mulch hay tomorrow for various purposes, one of which is to build me a raised bed in the garden space and fill with different materials for composting down for a spring planting.

Meanwhile, I think I could spare a bale of that to place in a spare garden cart of mine for my experiment. I currently have a son living on the premises for awhile who loves to pee outside of a morning...I'm going to see if I can harvest any of that liquid gold right into a waiting hay bale. If he's going to pee out there, it might as well be in a specific place that will yield something good, huh?

After it has become fully saturated, I could place that into the raised bed mix, spreading it out so that the whole bed could share in the goodness, then covering that over with more material.

What say you???

Human urine safe?

 

[Beekissed]

Human urine safe?

Definitely! I used it last year with a urine soaked haybale. Had my son keep wetting it down all winter...it was good and ripe by spring.

 

[ducks4you]

EWWWWWW!!!! You wouldn't keep one there if you had to clean up urine soaked bedding daily or a kitty litter box!!!
Ya know, straw will decompose very nicely without urine!!! Just saw a gardening program recently where the gardener lives in WI and was planting a field of garlic in the Fall, then covering it with plain old UN-urined straw.
Somebody convinced me to bury a toilet in one of my beds. DON'T ask why--I don't even reMEMber why.
BAAAADDDDDD Idea!!! DH laughs and won't let me remove it. BUT, he is crashing our DD's summer camping vacation in South Dakota next summer, so I will have 5 undisturbed days to rectify my mistake.

 

[Dirtmechanic]

Interesting discussion. I am always ready to make my soil better. I am not sure that you shouldn't disturb the soil. All I know is that SOMETHING will grow in your soil, good or bad, unless it is poisoned! As I understand it certain weeds that grow will tell you about your soil. For instance purslane tells you that you have a fertile soil bed. Chickweed will fill in where you have killed off the grass. Saplings are opportunistic and need to be taken down where you do not want them while they are small, or else they are harder to deal with later. Last October I had a friend take down a volunteer tree that I didn't deal with. The base was over 3 ft diameter and it was growing next to a pine tree that I DID want. I will let the stump rot and/or kill off any attempt for the tree to regenerate from the base, as they try to do. I have been successful killing saplings by digging down 4 inches, sawing off below ground, shoving in cardboard and covering with a brick. Dead next year without herbicides.
We have different soils in different parts of the country. In IL--reminded of this today with 35 mph winds and winter temperatures sinking down to single digits tonight--we lose some of our insects, good and bad, to the winter weather. One of the U of Illinois Extension educators has become a big proponent of pollinators and growing plants that nurture helpful predatory insects. I KNOW that we have them. I have many times seen tomato hornworms on my plants that are themselves covered with those white eggs from a predatory wasp. The young wasps eat the hornworm after hatching. I see plenty of praying mantis every summer. I am offering an environment that they like. I want to plant more plants that also attract more birds that eat insects that attack my plants. We already have barn swallows that nest in the barn, but the barn is the attraction, NOT the garden and they consume mosquitoes.
MY insect problem is primarily squash bugs and squash vine borers. If you have a solution for THOSE, we need to talk.

Squash vine borers come out here when it hits 80. So May roughly. Eggs live in the soil near the plant so it is good to either elevate or spread out the squash so you can maintain the soil. I use neem, thyme and pyrethrin. This year I am going to be examining the use of good old silicone painted on the base of some plants. If you take note in the plagarism I am engaged in below, you will note the use of clay or kaolin. I think this is ridiculous because flex. I saw the silicone used on a rotting wisteria root and thought wow that is a thing. I am a fan of silicone as an amendment but I am sure this type will act as a flexible coating that a bug of fungus cannot penetrate. Pure speculation at this point, but fun.


My plagarism:

Several insecticidal active ingredients approved for organic production are labeled for use against squash vine borer, including azadirachtin (neem), neem oil, kaolin clay, geraniol, thyme oil, pyrethrins, and spinosad. Of these, efficacy information is currently available only for spinosad, and the formulation used in the trial was not the one approved for organic production. This trial, conducted in Connecticut, showed that four weekly applications of spinosad applied during the moth flight resulted in control levels similar to a conventional pyrethroid insecticide. Reductions in average number of squash vine borer per plant ranged between 67% for a 0.5 oz/A a.i. (active ingredient) rate and 87% for a 1 oz/A a.i. rate (Boucher and Durgy, 2002).

Stem injections of Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) are frequently recommended for squash vine borer management, especially for organic gardeners. Trials in South Carolina compared spray application and stem injection of commercial formulations of Bt with a conventional insecticide and an untreated control (Canhilal and Carner, 2007). The injection and spray application methods produced similar results, and the Bt treatments provided control similar to that of the conventional insecticide. Note that Bt does not appear on the list of active ingredients currently EPA-labeled for use against squash vine borer.