Take Our Jobs!

[wifezilla]

An illegal was a friend of a buddie's daughter. He borrowed her car one day and had an accident destroying her car along with 3 others. He skipped the country leaving the buddie's daughter to clean up the mess. They found out later this wasn't the first time he had done this.

Apparently he would just wait for things to die down and then come back over the border with a new fake ID.

"A recent study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform discovered that illegal aliens cost Colorado taxpayers more than $1.1 billion per year, or about $612 per household. Additionally, between $730 million and $1 billion per year of wages paid to illegal aliens is sent out of the country instead of being reinvested in local communities.

Since 2000, the population of illegal aliens in Colorado has nearly doubled, rising to over 270,000 illegal aliens. Including children born to illegal aliens, this number is even higher, and has accounted for 35% of the states population growth over this time period.

More than 10% of the students in Colorado public schools are the children of illegal aliens, costing the taxpayers $11,000 each per year, for an annual total of $925 million. Another $68 million per year is spent on programs for limited English students, who are mostly the children of illegal aliens. These costs do not include the costs to the federal government incurred by illegal aliens in the Colorado public education system.

Illegal aliens cost Colorado taxpayers $82 million per year. This does not include the health care costs which are charged to the federal government or the higher premiums paid by Coloradans to help cover costs incurred by illegal aliens in Colorado.

Colorado taxpayers pay $38 million per year to incarcerate illegal aliens in Colorado. This estimate only covers a small portion of the cost of criminal aliens to Colorado. Not included in the estimate are the costs to the federal government, law enforcement costs, costs to the judicial system, and the impact of the crimes themselves.

The minimum cost of $1.1 billion per year to the Colorado budget due to illegal aliens is double the current Colorado budget deficit of $560.7 million. If illegal aliens left the state of Colorado, this $560.7 budget deficit would turn into a surplus of about the same amount. One suspects that the percentage of Coloradans in favor of enacting an Arizona-style law would be even higher, if these figures were widely known."
http://www.westernyouth.org/article...icit-into-surplus-if-illegal-aliens-deported/

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ladyhawke1, I believe this is one time you and I are in basic agreement, but the following are my thoughts. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

The issue is about human beings, not animals. A vast majority of the brown immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are decent human beings, not the criminals the demagogues love to portray. There are undoubtedly some unsavory elements, but will someone tell me what large grouping of people does not have some unsavory elements? My wife has been around educators all her adult life, both due to volunteer work and her profession, so we know many educators socially. You can always find exceptions, but the general consensus is that the children of the brown immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are usually better behaved, more polite, and more studious than the general student population. This is not a scientifically based nationwide study but just my personal observations, but wouldn't it be nice to have more of these characteristics in our schools instead of trying to teach the other students to hate and look down on these kids.

I don't know how much I actually believe the numbers in the articles concerning "welfare" and how much the "cost" is. I don't know how relevant the actual numbers are. The issue is certainly a lot more complex than the hate-teaching demagogues want you to believe. I do think the illegal immigrants are a vital cog in our economy and that we would suffer enormous economic and social problems if all illegals were magically deported, let alone the actual disruption to families, some of which are American citizens.

One of the articles mentioned when did other peoples, such as the Irish, have to show their papers? I'd suggest being a bit careful with this comparison. The immigration laws were different in, say, the mid-1800's. Our country was desperate for immigrants. The visas and permit rules were totally different. You cannot compare the two from the legal perspective. But if you study history, you will see that at times the Irish, Italian, Poles, the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe, the Vietnamese immigrants, and many others have been used by demagogues to fuel hatred and advance their own phobic paranoia, usually locally but with some aspects nationwide. Who remembers the stories and fears that some spread when John Kennedy was running for president, about how the Pope would be giving Kennedy day to day instructions on how to run the country if, horrors, a Catholic were elected president.

Concerning racial profiling, I'm reminded that when Hitler decreed that all Jews in Denmark had to were yellow stars to identify themselves, the King of Denmark decreed that henceforth all Danes were Jews and started wearing the star himself. That took courage and undoubtedly saved many Danish jews. My stepson has endured racial profiling although his ancestors have been American citizens for several generations. I don't consider it right that an American citizen has to be afraid to conduct business normally because they can realistically expect to be harrassed just because of the way they look or their name. And if anyone does not think that there are law enforcement officers that will abuse the power, especially if they think it is "required" of them, I suggest you read the newspaper or watch a local (not national) network TV news program and see how many adults in a position of power and authority, say teachers or coaches, abuse children. Most don't, but the ones that do make the local news. Why make it so much easier for the rotten ones to get away with it or even encourage it. I don't like that Arizona law.

I would love to see a humane, reasonable, workable immigration law. Historically, traditionally, we have been a society that welcomed immigrants. We got what I consider the cream of the crop, the bold, hard-working, risk-takers that were willing to take a chance to improve their lives and the lives of their families, especially children and grandchildren. I don't approve of wide open borders with unlimited immigration, but what we have right now is obviously not working and I don't think miving to a police state is the right way to go.

 

[Ladyhawke1]

When you have a failing economy and no jobs and a need to stave off unrest.....why of course you warehouse people. It is a great way to have a captive work force. Hey...why not privatize these facilties..it is a great way to make a profit.

How do you make a profit? Why you cut corners of course. You cut back on the food, healthcare, and maintenance of such facilities, or should I say human beings. Anyway....all these guys are just crooks anyhow.....and if they all disappear tomorrow who cares.

AS crime statistics goes down ...incarceration rates goes up. What is wrong with this picture?

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/03/07-2

Oh, there is so much more and so little time.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/05/17-6

Prisons are big profit makers.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/03/11-15

You are less safe.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/23-3

 

[Ladyhawke1]

Ladyhawke1, I believe this is one time you and I are in basic agreement, but the following are my thoughts. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

The issue is about human beings, not animals. A vast majority of the brown immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are decent human beings, not the criminals the demagogues love to portray. There are undoubtedly some unsavory elements, but will someone tell me what large grouping of people does not have some unsavory elements? My wife has been around educators all her adult life, both due to volunteer work and her profession, so we know many educators socially. You can always find exceptions, but the general consensus is that the children of the brown immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are usually better behaved, more polite, and more studious than the general student population. This is not a scientifically based nationwide study but just my personal observations, but wouldn't it be nice to have more of these characteristics in our schools instead of trying to teach the other students to hate and look down on these kids.

I don't know how much I actually believe the numbers in the articles concerning "welfare" and how much the "cost" is. I don't know how relevant the actual numbers are. The issue is certainly a lot more complex than the hate-teaching demagogues want you to believe. I do think the illegal immigrants are a vital cog in our economy and that we would suffer enormous economic and social problems if all illegals were magically deported, let alone the actual disruption to families, some of which are American citizens.

One of the articles mentioned when did other peoples, such as the Irish, have to show their papers? I'd suggest being a bit careful with this comparison. The immigration laws were different in, say, the mid-1800's. Our country was desperate for immigrants. The visas and permit rules were totally different. You cannot compare the two from the legal perspective. But if you study history, you will see that at times the Irish, Italian, Poles, the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe, the Vietnamese immigrants, and many others have been used by demagogues to fuel hatred and advance their own phobic paranoia, usually locally but with some aspects nationwide. Who remembers the stories and fears that some spread when John Kennedy was running for president, about how the Pope would be giving Kennedy day to day instructions on how to run the country if, horrors, a Catholic were elected president.

Concerning racial profiling, I'm reminded that when Hitler decreed that all Jews in Denmark had to were yellow stars to identify themselves, the King of Denmark decreed that henceforth all Danes were Jews and started wearing the star himself. That took courage and undoubtedly saved many Danish jews. My stepson has endured racial profiling although his ancestors have been American citizens for several generations. I don't consider it right that an American citizen has to be afraid to conduct business normally because they can realistically expect to be harrassed just because of the way they look or their name. And if anyone does not think that there are law enforcement officers that will abuse the power, especially if they think it is "required" of them, I suggest you read the newspaper or watch a local (not national) network TV news program and see how many adults in a position of power and authority, say teachers or coaches, abuse children. Most don't, but the ones that do make the local news. Why make it so much easier for the rotten ones to get away with it or even encourage it. I don't like that Arizona law.

I would love to see a humane, reasonable, workable immigration law. Historically, traditionally, we have been a society that welcomed immigrants. We got what I consider the cream of the crop, the bold, hard-working, risk-takers that were willing to take a chance to improve their lives and the lives of their families, especially children and grandchildren. I don't approve of wide open borders with unlimited immigration, but what we have right now is obviously not working and I don't think miving to a police state is the right way to go.

So eloquently put.

 

[Ladyhawke1]

An illegal was a friend of a buddie's daughter. He borrowed her car one day and had an accident destroying her car along with 3 others. He skipped the country leaving the buddie's daughter to clean up the mess. They found out later this wasn't the first time he had done this.

Apparently he would just wait for things to die down and then come back over the border with a new fake ID.

"A recent study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform discovered that illegal aliens cost Colorado taxpayers more than $1.1 billion per year, or about $612 per household. Additionally, between $730 million and $1 billion per year of wages paid to illegal aliens is sent out of the country instead of being reinvested in local communities.

Since 2000, the population of illegal aliens in Colorado has nearly doubled, rising to over 270,000 illegal aliens. Including children born to illegal aliens, this number is even higher, and has accounted for 35% of the states population growth over this time period.

More than 10% of the students in Colorado public schools are the children of illegal aliens, costing the taxpayers $11,000 each per year, for an annual total of $925 million. Another $68 million per year is spent on programs for limited English students, who are mostly the children of illegal aliens. These costs do not include the costs to the federal government incurred by illegal aliens in the Colorado public education system.

Illegal aliens cost Colorado taxpayers $82 million per year. This does not include the health care costs which are charged to the federal government or the higher premiums paid by Coloradans to help cover costs incurred by illegal aliens in Colorado.

Colorado taxpayers pay $38 million per year to incarcerate illegal aliens in Colorado. This estimate only covers a small portion of the cost of criminal aliens to Colorado. Not included in the estimate are the costs to the federal government, law enforcement costs, costs to the judicial system, and the impact of the crimes themselves.

The minimum cost of $1.1 billion per year to the Colorado budget due to illegal aliens is double the current Colorado budget deficit of $560.7 million. If illegal aliens left the state of Colorado, this $560.7 budget deficit would turn into a surplus of about the same amount. One suspects that the percentage of Coloradans in favor of enacting an Arizona-style law would be even higher, if these figures were widely known."
http://www.westernyouth.org/article...icit-into-surplus-if-illegal-aliens-deported/

You do know that I am acting as the "devils advocate" here...right?

When they get throught with "these" people who is next?

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/05/11

I would dearly love to start wearing a yellow star on my person. However, I am afraid it would be lost on people who do not know their history.

 

[ninnymary]

Ridgerunner...I couldn't have said it better. Being Hispanic, working in the fields as a child, and have a degree in criminal justice, probation and parole I fully understand the issue. I wish more people thought like you.

After working in the field I became disenchanted and choose to work with children instead.

Mary

 

[wifezilla]

"The Arizona law makes it clear that there must first be a valid lawful stop, detention or arrest before any investigation of immigration status can begin. The valid stop, detention or arrest cannot involve immigration status; it has to be independent, based upon an other law or ordinance. These are quotations from the text of the law.

A stop, detention or arrest can't be justified by merely suspecting someone's immigration status. It is only after a valid arrest, stop or detention has been established only at that point that a police officer can even consider investigating immigration status, under the Arizona law. And at that point, the officer still can't investigate, unless there are reasonable grounds to suspect illegal entry. And even then, he can only make a reasonable effort ... to determine the person's immigration status.

More importantly, the officer can't begin to make an arrest, unless the inquiry produces a solid basis, or in other words, probable cause for arrest. And the Arizona law says that ethnicity a person's appearance cannot be considered as the basis of the reasonable grounds. It doesn't have to say this, because it's already the law, but it's a good thing for Arizona to restate it explicitly."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/7015240.html

As for the UN...don't get me started.

 

[vfem]

"The Arizona law makes it clear that there must first be a valid lawful stop, detention or arrest before any investigation of immigration status can begin. The valid stop, detention or arrest cannot involve immigration status; it has to be independent, based upon an other law or ordinance. These are quotations from the text of the law.

A stop, detention or arrest can't be justified by merely suspecting someone's immigration status. It is only after a valid arrest, stop or detention has been established only at that point that a police officer can even consider investigating immigration status, under the Arizona law. And at that point, the officer still can't investigate, unless there are reasonable grounds to suspect illegal entry. And even then, he can only make a reasonable effort ... to determine the person's immigration status.

More importantly, the officer can't begin to make an arrest, unless the inquiry produces a solid basis, or in other words, probable cause for arrest. And the Arizona law says that ethnicity a person's appearance cannot be considered as the basis of the reasonable grounds. It doesn't have to say this, because it's already the law, but it's a good thing for Arizona to restate it explicitly."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/7015240.html

As for the UN...don't get me started.

Actually I do not think the law is very clear. Its too broad, and honestly, in fear of being fired or someone screaming UNFAIR RACISM I don't think officers will act on the law. I think its just they were upset and went way over board. Could you image asking an American citizen for a Green Card when pulling them for running a red light? It humilating! I was asked for my green card when I applied for Medicaid because of my last name being hyphonated?! What that had to do with anything, I don't know? I sent them a copy of my birth certificate stating I was Born in Ct. I called and left a nasty message to say the least.

But I think people are listening now... I just don't like everyone who think AZ got it right. Because its not so.

I really do wish there was a more fair way of dealing with the issues at hand. I REALLY think the companies who are paying them unfairly should be attacked first. How they treat the workers are the MOST un-American thing I can think of.

But then it goes back to the 'laws'. There are laws on the books that either need changing or enforcing. ...last I heard, I voted for change? So where the heck is it already?

 

[elf]

I also happen to know some people in Prison here, they don't do squat, they work out in weight rooms, watching TV and then sitting in their cells BORED.
.

My husband met a guy who said he liked to go to prison once a yr.to get big (lift weights) I once bailed a girl out of jail, but when she was arrested again, I let her stay (as I had told her I would). She told my husband when she got out that she enjoyed the spaghetti and the comradarie. Should never have wasted my time or money on her.

 

[hangin'witthepeeps]

I can only tell you my experience. My husband is a legal immigrant from a Latin American country. He has had his "green card" for 30 years. He is current applying for his Citizenship.

When he lost his job in 2007 I went and applied for "welfare". We are a family of four and I made $15,000 a year. I could only receive $77 in food stamps because my husband was not a US Citizen. I did not complain. I did not qualify for Medicaid because I have insurance at work which I pay $400 a month for. I was told because he is not a US Citizen, he would not qualify for Medicaid. Because he was not a US Citizen we also did not qualify for AFDC which is our term for cash supplement payments.

BUT after reading the rules, if you were from Cuba or other asylum countries, you could get welfare on a limited basis.

So after paying income tax, sales tax, property taxes for 30 years, my husband can not get "welfare". I say its fair, even though it had a negative effect on my situation.