Tomato Questions

[digitS']

Ridgerunner did such a good job with those answers, I am almost shy about weighing-in again . . .

Both determinants and indeterminants have been in my garden. Some of the early-maturing determinants have upset me by running thru their harvest before I was ready to see them go! But really, that's how they are supposed to behave.

I am just so delighted to have ripening tomatoes that when they are ripe and then GONE -- they leave me with that candy-from-a-baby feeling .

One of the determinants that actually has time to run thru its full life-cycle in my garden is Gold Nugget. This is an open-pollinated cherry that is just incredibly early and very productive. Gold Nugget isn't incredibly sweet however - that might be more in the realm of the hybrids. There will be all these golden cherries on a fairly small plant! Then the plant will begin to weaken . . .

I use the term "open-pollinated" (OP) rather than "heirloom" because Gold Nugget was developed just a few years ago. There are quite a few definitions for "heirloom" - you could almost make up your own .

Other OP cherries have been in my garden. I don't think any of them can match the sweetness of some hybrids. Sugar Lump is a misnomer in my opinion. I liked it - it has lots of flavor but I couldn't get DW to eat it .

Large Red Cherry was in my garden for decades. I don't know whether to recommend that one or not. It is rated about 70 days-to-maturity, so it ripens early enuf. You may want to look very closely at what will ripen in your area. Many larger heirlooms are 80 days and more. I don't bother with 'em . . .

Steve

 

[CJW]

Sorry if these are out of order.

~As for the drip line, I was planning on using mulch, but if the top of the soil is supposed to dry, maybe I wont. I was going to plan on at least a gallon in one hour per plant-every other day, if needed.

This sounds like it might be too much watering to me? I don't know exactly what I give mine in gal., but I only water once a week (if it hasn't already rained) and just water them deeply. You do want to mulch, once the soil has warmed up, because mulching will help keep the moisture consistent. Your tomatoes can have a number of problems in fruiting if overwatered or underwatered.

If you don't have space/resources to grow enough canning tomatoes, another good and more affordable option is to locate a U-pick and buy a few bushels. I have gotten them over in Ohio for $5 a bushel which is cheaper than growing them yourself anyway. Look around the end of July/beginning of August for those U-picks to open.

I understand the mulch, but I guess the water thing will have to be trial and error. My mother in love waters every day with a sprinkler, and she had 6 staked tomato plants and she ended up giving us many of hers. She also doesn't make paste or sauce.

I have the space, but its the trellises that I will be putting money into. It is looking like I will have about 10 dollars into each one, and I wont be able to trellis 60 plants. I have been given permission to spend what I want, but I don't want my garden to cost me and arm and a leg. I understand the trellises are reusable, so I am not going to factor that into food costs, per se, but I want to make sure I am able to ask for money without cringing! LOL

As far as the u-pick option, I don't know many local farmers, let alone organic local farmers. Although I live in an agricultural state, most of the ag around here is backed by large government subsidies and montsano.

I will have to go to the farmers market and meet some, but until then, I will have to supplement with store-bought. Right now, the cheapest I can buy a 10-12 oz (cant think of the exact ounces atm) can of organic tomato sauce is $1.50. Paste runs about 99 cents for 6 oz.

~I was looking at the "ballpark" figures from the link from Missouri, and I am curious why a trellised tomato would produce less than a caged one. Any guesses? Even the "down" option, which I would guess it is just letting them go hog wild with no stakes or anything produces more, supposedly. Odd.

With the cages you are growing them in three dimensions. With a trellis, you are growing them in two dimensions. You have to do more pruning because there is not enough room for all the suckers and shoots to grow on a two dimensioned trellis. You get more plant to produce tomatoes with the cage method. You'll notice the difference in width between rows for those two methods. As far as the down option, you are also using three dimensions instead of two, but look at the wastage. You get better quality tomatoes if they are up off the ground. They produce more but you don't harvest more. Trellissed or caged tomatoes are easier to harvest too even if you don't have a bad back or blown out knees.

One advantage to mulching and disadvantage to the down option is that certain diseases live in many soils. If the rain or water knocks that soil up on the plant and it has disease in it, that disease will infect your plant. Down tomatoes are even more susceptible. And mulch really helps keep your soil evenly moist. It doesn't need to dry out, it just doesn't need to be soggy wet. Damp enough to keep the roots working but dry enough so the roots don't drown and you have it about right. Too much alternating between wet and dry can be a problem. Mulch helps with that.

Another thing to consider is your climate. You are in Montana. Many of us are further south and have a longer growing season. Digits is probably one of the best ones of us to answer this because of where he lives, but you might want determinate instead of indeterminate varieties. Indeterminate tomatoes tend to produce all season long and grow taller than the determinate ones, but the determinate ones tend to produce a majority of their tomatoes in a fairly short span, say about a two week span. At your altitude, in a relatively short growing season, and since you are mostly interested in canning instead of eating raw, maybe someone with a similar growing season can mention a preference for determinate or indeterminate.

I can see about the 3 dimensions. I don't know if I can get/make 18-20 3 sided cages that will be 6 feet tall. I will have to brainstorm. I won't do ground/drop. It just seems wasteful. I wonder if I can make a cross-shaped trellis (when viewed from above)...I will have to look into that.

After the last 2 replies, I will plan on mulch. I will do more searching regarding how much to water with a drip system.

Again, I have looked at the determinate ones, and I think I would waste more if I did it that way. I plan on starting all of the tomatoes indoors, so I can lengthen the growing season. My Mother in love-who lives an hour away, and in a different zone, kept growing her tomatoes until October, only having to cover them a few times overnight. I am also making attachments to my trellises so I can add netting to keep the birds off, and the ability to throw a layer of plastic over as well.

Ridgerunner did such a good job with those answers, I am almost shy about weighing-in again . . .

Both determinants and indeterminants have been in my garden. Some of the early-maturing determinants have upset me by running thru their harvest before I was ready to see them go! But really, that's how they are supposed to behave.

I am just so delighted to have ripening tomatoes that when they are ripe and then GONE -- they leave me with that candy-from-a-baby feeling .

One of the determinants that actually has time to run thru its full life-cycle in my garden is Gold Nugget. This is an open-pollinated cherry that is just incredibly early and very productive. Gold Nugget isn't incredibly sweet however - that might be more in the realm of the hybrids. There will be all these golden cherries on a fairly small plant! Then the plant will begin to weaken . . .

I use the term "open-pollinated" (OP) rather than "heirloom" because Gold Nugget was developed just a few years ago. There are quite a few definitions for "heirloom" - you could almost make up your own .

Other OP cherries have been in my garden. I don't think any of them can match the sweetness of some hybrids. Sugar Lump is a misnomer in my opinion. I liked it - it has lots of flavor but I couldn't get DW to eat it .

Large Red Cherry was in my garden for decades. I don't know whether to recommend that one or not. It is rated about 70 days-to-maturity, so it ripens early enuf. You may want to look very closely at what will ripen in your area. Many larger heirlooms are 80 days and more. I don't bother with 'em . . .

Steve

The harvest period is why I chose the indeterminate. I want to stretch out the harvest so I am not as overwhelmed as I already will be.

The reason I am getting the Cherokee purple is because it is my husband's favorite. it has a range from 69-80 days. Sungolds are for the Munchersons (my boys and my husband) and range from 55-80, and the pastes (69-80 days) are for me to make sauce.

Thank you all again for your help!

 

[thistlebloom]

Cj, Digits had a great thread on tomato trellises, look here:
http://www.theeasygarden.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=30094
Hope that will give you some ideas.

 

[lesa]

Don't worry about being overwhelmed...when your tomatoes are ripe, put them in the freezer. Whenever you are ready- take them out of freezer, thaw, and start canning. The best part is that the skins will slip right off when they are thawed, and you'll be canning when the time is right for you!!

 

[digitS']

I can see about the 3 dimensions. I don't know if I can get/make 18-20 3 sided cages that will be 6 feet tall. I will have to brainstorm. I won't do ground/drop. It just seems wasteful. I wonder if I can make a cross-shaped trellis (when viewed from above)...I will have to look into that.

After the last 2 replies, I will plan on mulch. I will do more searching regarding how much to water with a drip system.

Again, I have looked at the determinate ones, and I think I would waste more if I did it that way. I plan on starting all of the tomatoes indoors, so I can lengthen the growing season.

6 feet tall, CJ? You are being optimistic for Montana. I am not saying that your tomatoes won't grow 6', they might grow to 8' but, you don't necessarily have to support them all the way to the top.

Don't get 33" cages - they are just about useless for any tomato except those varieties that don't really need support. The larger size wire cages are a little better but they are only about 4 feet. They are somewhat short but their main problem is sturdiness and if you have to drive 3 stakes around them - why bother to use wire cages. At least, that's my thinking.

I know you are talking about trellises, anyway. My neighbor has that "cross shaped" design that you are thinking about. It seems to work real well for him.

Let's go back to that cage with the 3 posts around it -- I used to just use the 3 stakes with baling twine to support the plant. That was better than a 33" cage. It worked pretty good. I have also set 1 post beside each plant and tied them with the twine all in a row. The plants were tied to the posts as they grew. I liked to use posts that were 5 or 6 feet long and set them a foot or so into the ground. It worked well enuf.

You might also look into something called a "Florida Weave" with a row of tomato plants. Search for those words: Florida weave tomatoes.

Many of the posts I use for trellises for flower beds came from a cabinet shop. They were set out for people to carry away and I did! Another reason to dislike cages is finding some place for them in the off-season. A stack of posts is a stack of posts . . . I got mine under a little cedar board roof, out of the way.

A gallon of water is 231 cubic inches, Wikipedia tells us. A square foot is 144 square inches. A gallon of water would cover 2 square feet to about 3/4ths of an inch. On my porous soil, I try to put down about 3/4 inch of water, twice a week. So, a gallon would cover about 2 square feet on a Monday and and I'd need to be back on Thursday, with another gallon for those 2 square feet.

Steve

 

[CJW]

Cj, Digits had a great thread on tomato trellises, look here:
(I had to remove the link since I am a noob!)
Hope that will give you some ideas.

I did see that when I was searching. I dont have any livestock panels or t-posts, so I would have to purchase all of them as well, and a panel costs about 30 dollars right now. It looks like a great set up, but I am trying to get mine to grow up rather than out. The trellis I plan on making is here (She posted the link in one of the threads here):
(it wont let me add the link-but the name of the blogspot is dustbathladies and the post is called my tomato walls and me under september of 2009. Sorry to send you on a goose chase!)

but I plan on adding accessories so I can hang netting.

Don't worry about being overwhelmed...when your tomatoes are ripe, put them in the freezer. Whenever you are ready- take them out of freezer, thaw, and start canning. The best part is that the skins will slip right off when they are thawed, and you'll be canning when the time is right for you!!

I don't have tons of freezer space, but this is useful information. I wonder how much a deep freeze is. I think ours crapped the bed, although we moved it here, just haven't checked to see if it works. It's been buried under crap in the garage since we moved in. *Spring project? lol

I can see about the 3 dimensions. I don't know if I can get/make 18-20 3 sided cages that will be 6 feet tall. I will have to brainstorm. I won't do ground/drop. It just seems wasteful. I wonder if I can make a cross-shaped trellis (when viewed from above)...I will have to look into that.

After the last 2 replies, I will plan on mulch. I will do more searching regarding how much to water with a drip system.

Again, I have looked at the determinate ones, and I think I would waste more if I did it that way. I plan on starting all of the tomatoes indoors, so I can lengthen the growing season.

6 feet tall, CJ? You are being optimistic for Montana. I am not saying that your tomatoes won't grow 6', they might grow to 8' but, you don't necessarily have to support them all the way to the top.

Don't get 33" cages - they are just about useless for any tomato except those varieties that don't really need support. The larger size wire cages are a little better but they are only about 4 feet. They are somewhat short but their main problem is sturdiness and if you have to drive 3 stakes around them - why bother to use wire cages. At least, that's my thinking.

I know you are talking about trellises, anyway. My neighbor has that "cross shaped" design that you are thinking about. It seems to work real well for him.

Let's go back to that cage with the 3 posts around it -- I used to just use the 3 stakes with baling twine to support the plant. That was better than a 33" cage. It worked pretty good. I have also set 1 post beside each plant and tied them with the twine all in a row. The plants were tied to the posts as they grew. I liked to use posts that were 5 or 6 feet long and set them a foot or so into the ground. It worked well enuf.

You might also look into something called a "Florida Weave" with a row of tomato plants. Search for those words: Florida weave tomatoes.

Many of the posts I use for trellises for flower beds came from a cabinet shop. They were set out for people to carry away and I did! Another reason to dislike cages is finding some place for them in the off-season. A stack of posts is a stack of posts . . . I got mine under a little cedar board roof, out of the way.

A gallon of water is 231 cubic inches, Wikipedia tells us. A square foot is 144 square inches. A gallon of water would cover 2 square feet to about 3/4ths of an inch. On my porous soil, I try to put down about 3/4 inch of water, twice a week. So, a gallon would cover about 2 square feet on a Monday and and I'd need to be back on Thursday, with another gallon for those 2 square feet.

Steve

My mother in love lives closer to the mountains, and her growing season isn't quite as long as ours is. Her tomato plants were staked, and then she had twine around them...if I were to hold them up by the top plant, they would have been at least 5.5 feet tall. I figure a 6 foot would hold them, and have room in case they get taller.

I would build my own cages, if I decide to go that way. I just don't see myself doing it, although using a combination of the florida weave and the poles might work. I was planning on either getting netting with large holes, or making my own with large holes. If I pre-trellis the poles (instead of weaving every few days), I would be able to just tuck, prune, and water...and I can spend more time weeding, etc.

The three post cage-type with twine makes sense too. I would have to see what the posts cost. I can get a deal on steel tubing, and possibly conduit, so I have to see what is most economical. PVC is out of the question...it is too flexible. The storage issue is another reason. I would be able to break my trellises down every year. Does your neighbor use conduit for his cross shaped ones?

Awesome information on the water. Is 3/4 inches every few days considered "deep watering"?

Again, thank you all!

 

[CJW]

Oooh-after looking further into her (Catalina is her screen name on here) blog, she does have a tutorial on how to build it.. She uses t-stakes/posts as well. I might have to modify my design, since I don't have a pipe bender, but I will try to get photos of what I do come spring!

 

[Ridgerunner]

For a trellis, in the past I have used posts and 2" x 4" welded wire instead of string or straight wire. It worked pretty well but there was one problem. Some of the tomatoes I grew, Black Krim seemed to be the worst, tried to grow inside those 2" x 4" holes in the wire. Either you could not get them out or they would wind up cut into by the wire as it grew and rotting. If you decide to use welded wire fencing, I suggest using wire that has holes at least 4" square.

I used cow panels last year, but instead of making cages, I put the cow panels on each side of the row, maybe 6" or 8" from the middle of the row using stakes to help keep it vertical. That way I had the effect of a cage but storage is easy. I just lean them up against the deer fencing when the season is over.

You probably don't want to spend the money for cow panels, especially your first year growing tomatoes, but you might consider fencing either side of the row to get a cage effect instead of a trellis. Or maybe this is something to keep in the back of your head for the next year. Main thing, though, was to mention the problem I had with the 2" x 4" holes in the wire.

 

[silkiechicken]

One of the determinants that actually has time to run thru its full life-cycle in my garden is Gold Nugget. This is an open-pollinated cherry that is just incredibly early and very productive.

I LOVE gold nugget!!!

They do awesome potted on a north facing balcony. LOL

Last year was bust for all tomatoes except the gold nugget in the cool summer. The year before I had gold nugget tomatoes before july!

However, frost has always hit before my gold nuggets stopped flowering... is there a non determinate gold nugget? I swear they would just keep going if the weather would let them. Guess climate is pretty fitting here for the gold nugget... since it was developed at OSU...which is about 3 miles away from my balcony at school.

Oh... back home all tomatoes are just twine tied to a stake in the ground or to a fence row. Granted, back home, a HUGE tomato plant would be 3 feet tall. Short cool summers even on south facing against walls and cement side walks don't do tomatoes justice. I should just grow beets or something... since cool weather crops do just fine till july's first few days of 75F weather.

 

[CJW]

Thanks for the heads up regarding hole size. I am planning on 6x6 inch holes. If I can't find netting to suit my needs, I will make my own. (Add another thing to the list, right??)