"GLOBALISATION CHEAPENS EVERYTHING."-- The True Cost of Cheap Food.

[Lavender2]

First of all, Hattie, you are far from an outsider. You are a wonderful part of this garden community!:happy_flower
Thank you for all the knowledge and interest you share with all of us!

In my quest for some unbiased facts about the cost of 'feeding the world', I bumped into something interesting...

It's maybe more - the price of the unknown.

I always try to keep an open mind, about everything.
It is very difficult to research and challenge the validity of the vast information we have access to.

Here is a good example:

A current (frivolous) lawsuit, as reported by -
Minnesota Ag Connection
(I must assume, supported by Ag)

Atrazine ~ Toxic Waters ~ as reported in -
The New York Times
Click on the map graphic on the left for levels across the nation, and please read the article...
(Biased in any way ... ???)

A report by - ( a link from the NY Times article)
The National Resources Defense Council
(It is a long report - I found Chapter 2 interesting - Also, Appendix:Results State by State)

As Reinbeau commented - Education is the key, you decide ...

I also thank you for the politeness of your posts: long may it continue.

 

[patandchickens]

Someone says "grow vegetables instead of corn/beans/wheat/alfalfa", come to Indiana, let me introduce you to farmers who use to. Can't make enough money to pay inputs. For every tomato you buy in store 5 are destroyed because of no market--same w/onions, potato's, etc.

Only because the whole entire system has become so twistedly dysfunctional. If we weren't paying to ship tomatoes halfway across the globe, and if people would process their produce locally and/or themselves, there WOULD be strong local markets.

It is not just Big Ag's fault, it is a whole big synergistic ball o' worms involving pretty much every type of person and level of organization. Not as a plot or stupidity, but just as something that has happened, for a whole variety of reasons that seemed sensible at the time to enough people, but that have turned out to have far-reaching, serious, and difficult-to-correct consequences.

That does not, however, mean we are STUCK with the way things are. It is still IMHO *very highly* worth working towards figuring out what IS changeable, changing it, then seeing what *else* becomes changeable thereby.

I can also tell you (not that some of you will believe this) but GMO corn will outyield conventional corn (same hybrid) by over 20 bu/acre when the yields are over 180 bu/acre. I've done the side by sides for over 8 years (how long RW/RR trait in corn has been here. Under 180, you don't see the yield difference consistently.

Under ideal conditions, yes, of course GMO corn is super high production. THat is sort of the point of it.

However, ideal conditions are not always attainable now (especially in most of the non-Westernized world), and are most certainly going to become less and less and less attainable even HERE as the years go by... and what then?

Big Ag's solution is "we will just do more of the same, only more *of* it".

Not everyone believes that this is of infinite usefulness however.

A pretty good argument can be made that entirely different TYPES of solutions are necessary and that a great deal more energy should be going into developing THEM than is currently occurring.

And seedcorn, when people repeatedly say "Monsanto" and do not mention other similar mega-giant-Big-Ag-dominating companies, it is merely verbal shorthand. Rather than giving a list (although there are darn FEW companies involved, if you look at actual who-owns-who) it is a lot easier to just name one. Like when people talk about automakers in general and say "Detroit", or refer to facial tissues as "Kleenex" or those who frequent fast food restaurants as "the MacDonalds generation".

JMHO,

Pat

 

[wifezilla]

when people repeatedly say "Monsanto" and do not mention other similar mega-giant-Big-Ag-dominating companies, it is merely verbal shorthand.

Maybe we can just call these corporations "The Axis of Evil" or "They that shall not be named" or "Jerks".

I'm flexible.

 

[Ladyhawke1]

Another problem is that people think that food comes from the market. They have never had the experience of growing things. We are so far removed from our farming past.

The educational system nowadays sucks on teaching anything about food or food preparation. I understand that the classes on these matters no longer exist.

When I was in school.. I was taught how butter was made and we used a little jar to make it. It was a kick. Even though, my Mom taught me some of the basics on cooking, I also had a cooking class in school.

But, isnt that why we are all here to help each other to achieve, and to learn about these things. There is more than one way to grow a plant or pluck a chicken. Diversity is a beautiful thing. Doing something ONLY one way is not good for the planet or its people. I say bring on the recipes and the planting ideas!

I wish I could start this type of thing in my neighborhood without seeming intrusive. People are just so worried about their jobs and such. I would think it would be hard for them to get interested or get up the energy for it right now. Maybe someday I could invite people into my backyard and let them see what I have achieved with so little. I know my friends are impressedbut then they are my friends.

 

[Ladyhawke1]

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/03/12-0

Remember me mentioning your friendly Chamber of Commerce. I just found this story dated yesterday, March 12.

Why do we allow these people in our communities? This IS all part of the globalization problem. They are one of the biggest promoters of sending our jobs overseas. I learned about this ten years ago and now look where we are today.

Only now, they are messing with our healthcare. When they get done messin' with us will there be any communities left? If not, will we then be called serfs in their serfdoms?

 

[seedcorn]

Only because the whole entire system has become so twistedly dysfunctional. If we weren't paying to ship tomatoes halfway across the globe, and if people would process their produce locally and/or themselves, there WOULD be strong local markets.

It is not just Big Ag's fault, it is a whole big synergistic ball o' worms involving pretty much every type of person and level of organization. Not as a plot or stupidity, but just as something that has happened, for a whole variety of reasons that seemed sensible at the time to enough people, but that have turned out to have far-reaching, serious, and difficult-to-correct consequences.

On this we agree. Want things done a certain way, PAY FOR IT. I know some of you do all the time, some of you do when you can (but will buy the slave labor product if it's cheaper), some of you will buy slave labor products if that's only out, some just buy the cheapest. It's in your hands to change w/your dollars.

"English" farming is AVERAGING over 150 Bu/acre which means most fields are well over 200 bu/acre and we are seeing spikes of over 400 bu/acre. Where as amish are averaging under 80 bu/acre. Do the math. Amish also use traited products so it's the WAY they farm and not the seed. Noone but "specialty" markets uses open pollinated corn--when we did average yields were in the 40's. So if the American farmer would grow like amish (manure isn't free either if you count the cost of horses, manure spreaders, etc), we lost 70 bu/acre. Corn w/150bu average is $3.6/bushel. With 80 bu/average what would be the price of corn and meat/dairy/poultry products? Again, do the math. Again, just like ALL on this board, we don't want to live like amish and to expect us to is.......................

As far as not sustainable, all the things some say are killing our soils, they have NO answer as to why yields are going up, up, and up. We're getting less soil run off, much less pesticide run off or carryover in soils and the earthworm populations are exploding. They just keep repeating their mindless montra that it won't always work. Ag is always looking at new and better ways to do things, we do live on this earth just like real people, except we live on the land we grow our crops on. Do you think we want to pollute our own wells & ground? We're not like the business person who pollutes in one location and live far from their place of employment.

I'm done. Live in peace.

 

[Reinbeau]

Seedcorn, you are taking this way too personally. Let's accept that you don't practice the horrible methods that others in the agricultural industry are practicing. No one is saying you do. So keep doing it the right way and quit defending those who don't. Because you claim they don't exist doesn't make it so, there's plenty of evidence that there are many bad agricultural practices out there - that's what we all want stopped. See the difference?

For example - explain how squashing competition in a monopolistic way is a good thing for any farmer in this country - besides the few who sponsored and supported this legislation My Forbidden Fruits (and Vegetables). Making it impossible for small, regional farmers to actually supply their region with fresh food benefits no one but some far-away farmer with more clout.

 

[wifezilla]

Actually, run off is getting worse in some places...
http://www.monroenews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100313/NEWS01/703139975
http://host.madison.com/wsj/special...cle_df56a7f6-2255-11df-90a7-001cc4c03286.html

 

[seedcorn]

Seedcorn, you are taking this way too personally. Let's accept that you don't practice the horrible methods that others in the agricultural industry are practicing. No one is saying you do. So keep doing it the right way and quit defending those who don't. Because you claim they don't exist doesn't make it so, there's plenty of evidence that there are many bad agricultural practices out there - that's what we all want stopped. See the difference?

I'm done w/this thread. I'm only responding because this is aimed at me personnally. Please everyone stop responding to anything I type on this thread (I won't be responding any more on this thread). Anyone can PM me if you feel the need.

Please, cut/paste post where I type this. Those of us in AG, know what problems we face and we address them on a daily basis.

ps...sorry, beat me later....had to read article from Wife.....complaining about using manure???? I thought that was what we were suppose to use, now manure (english put lot less on our ground than amish) is a bad thing? Contaminates well water? What it does is stink up nearby housing. Please, you all discuss this and come back to us in Ag and tell us how to do it. Use manure or don't use manure, how much per acre, when can we spread it. Or is manure from a 20 sow herd safer than 20 sows from a herd of 1000?

 

[Reinbeau]

The best way to avoid discussion is to stop responding. We can and will discuss what is said here, it's what a discussion forum is for.