Home gardens designed like agricultural operations, What?!?!?!

[Lavender2]

And I suppose to answer this question we need to look at a couple things;

1. A plants shape, both above the ground and below
2. which nutrients and chemicals are created by a plants leaf fall and roots respectively.
3. Understanding a plants niche and specifically requirements for continued growth.
4. Which species are specific plants habitats for, both above the ground and below.
5. Does the plant allow for mychrorizal interface? Which type?
6. What factors prevent growth?
7. And how do all of the plants on the list meet the needs of each other and the species the live on, above, and below them.
8. What are the beneficial interactions?

I you have more beneficial interactions than bad, my experience and research would tell me that I am likely to create a stable ecosystem. Please don't confuse stable ecosystems with static ecosystems.

Is there really such a thing as a static ecosystem?

I have no doubt that one can find plants that will co-exist to the benefit of each other and their ecosystem. Native ecosystems have proven that. Forest gardening has it's benefits, it also has it's limitations and disadvantages - space, animal foraging, limits of diverse foods, sunlight and some nutrients for certain plants, maturity decline. The introduction of 'non-native' species can cause substantial shifts in ecosystem function. For many years it will be an 'intensively managed ecosystem', with limited diverse food production long term.

One of the biggest ecological issues right now is locally grown food. In regard to sustainable gardening - permaculture, organic gardening, composting, companion planting all play a role when applied in any system, to lessen environmental impact. In other words... who will grow the annual vegetables? ... where will they come from? ... do we stop eating so many of them? ... can we grow them in a forest garden without taking more land to do it?

 

[jasonvivier]

Is there really such a thing as a static ecosystem?

I have no doubt that one can find plants that will co-exist to the benefit of each other and their ecosystem. Native ecosystems have proven that. Forest gardening has it's benefits, it also has it's limitations and disadvantages - space, animal foraging, limits of diverse foods, sunlight and some nutrients for certain plants, maturity decline. The introduction of 'non-native' species can cause substantial shifts in ecosystem function. For many years it will be an 'intensively managed ecosystem', with limited diverse food production long term.

One of the biggest ecological issues right now is locally grown food. In regard to sustainable gardening - permaculture, organic gardening, composting, companion planting all play a role when applied in any system, to lessen environmental impact. In other words... who will grow the annual vegetables? ... where will they come from? ... do we stop eating so many of them? ... can we grow them in a forest garden without taking more land to do it?

No static ecosystems in nature.

I define a static ecosystem as a single use system kept at specific point of succession by herbicide, fungcide, and so forth. So only growing tomatoes over a large area for a period of time. It is kept static through the use of chemicals that kill off everything that would go there, other than of course the cash crop.

I don't understand how space is an issue? I have a forest garden in the city of Manchester, NH in an almost fully urban setting.

On the sunlight issue, I don't think it is as big an issue (another farming problem.) There are many examples to show that filter light doesn't result in much of a drop in yield over a season.

Limits of diverse foods? How so? The whole point is diversity.

And maturity decline only occurs in non-maintained forest gardens. It takes about two days to pull a fully mature 1 acre forest garden back into heavy production after the canopy has closed.

The reset of your comments drift off from the nature of this topic, which is gardening like a farmer.

 

[bobm]

I define a static ecosystem as a sign use system. So only growing tomatoes over a large area. It is kept static through the use of chemicals that kill off everything that would go there, other than of course the cash crop.

I don't understand how space is an issue? I have a forest garden in the city of Manchester, NH in an almost fully urban setting.

On the sunlight issue, I don't think it is as big an issue (another farming problem.) There are many examples to show that filter light doesn't result in much of a drop in yield over a season.

Limits of diverse foods? How so? The whole point is diversity.

And maturity decline only occurs in non-maintained forest gardens. It takes about two days to pull a fully mature 1 acre forest garden back into heavy production after the canopy has closed.

The reset of your comments drift off from the nature of this topic, which is gardening like a farmer.

It is quite obvious that someone has not produced a cash crop to sell to customers for profit over expenses as the above methodology may work in an ideal theory but would not produce a cash crop to cover expenses much less a profit. Also, in any business venture such as farming , one has to show a profit from one's efforts in 3 out of 5 years or one will be classified as a hobby and will not be able to deduct expenses and will have to pay their "fair share " of taxes.

 

[jasonvivier]

I am clearly not talking about being farmer, I am talking about being a home gardener - why is this so difficult to understand? If we were talking about about farming I would be having a different discussion, be are not. That isn't the point of this topic.

 

[bobm]

I am clearly not talking about being farmer, I am talking about being a home gardener - why is this so difficult to understand? If we were talking about about farming I would be having a different discussion, be are not. That isn't the point of this topic.

garden tour
Since I am so dence ... but I did (I did have 6 other gardens at my former homes ) and currently have a back yard garden , so I have produced many a crop and edible landscaping ( 2 years ago my garden [one of 12] was featured in our County's sustainable garden tour organized by the County Environmental Department ) in way over a half a century... now if my garden looked like this one in the photo, my production of edible plant produce would be way down due to competition from weeds and attacked by pest insects . So according to the above photo, I am so wrong in my husbandry practices. Also, while studying Anthropology courses at the University that I attended, I seam to have come across text books and lectures by Professors that featured peoples in slash and burn societies who set fires to a forest to clear out trees, brush and grasses so that they could grow a crop. These peoples also used their hands and / or primitive tools to pull out weeds to reduce the unwanted plants from competing with the crop plants for available nutrients to increase yields. Too, I also seem to have studied the planting in the "3 sisters " companion planting in some Native American Indian cultures, and somehow seem to recall that they also practiced removing other plant species to lessen competition for nutrients for increases in edible yields. Were these more primitive peoples so wrong too ???? Oh yea, I also worked at a University Vegetable Crop Department, and have NEVER once encountered a situation where any Professor / plant researcher would condone a practice such as shown in the above photo . So I presume that these University Professors are all wet too ??? Silly me !

 

[jasonvivier]

garden tour
Since I am so dence ... but I did (I did have 6 other gardens at my former homes ) and currently have a back yard garden , so I have produced many a crop and edible landscaping ( 2 years ago my garden [one of 12] was featured in our County's sustainable garden tour organized by the County Environmental Department ) in way over a half a century... now if my garden looked like this one in the photo, my production of edible plant produce would be way down due to competition from weeds and attacked by pest insects . So according to the above photo, I am so wrong in my husbandry practices. Also, while studying Anthropology courses at the University that I attended, I seam to have come across text books and lectures by Professors that featured peoples in slash and burn societies who set fires to a forest to clear out trees, brush and grasses so that they could grow a crop. These peoples also used their hands and / or primitive tools to pull out weeds to reduce the unwanted plants from competing with the crop plants for available nutrients to increase yields. Too, I also seem to have studied the planting in the "3 sisters " companion planting in some Native American Indian cultures, and somehow seem to recall that they also practiced removing other plant species to lessen competition for nutrients for increases in edible yields. Were these more primitive peoples so wrong too ???? Oh yea, I also worked at a University Vegetable Crop Department, and have NEVER once encountered a situation where any Professor / plant researcher would condone a practice such as shown in the above photo . So I presume that these University Professors are all wet too ??? Silly me !

And yet the picture above still shows productive, healthy plants regardless of your years of experience and the suggestions of your people. So where does that leave us? Clearly something is working for those plants in the picture. It is hard to deny that isn't it?

I haven't said that the removal of plants species is a bad idea. I think you made that up as part of some internal dialog.

I guess the next thing is, while we are on the topic: Competition between plants doesn't happen to the extent that most gardeners think. It is only plants seeking the same nutrients at the same time that compete. And even in those cases in natural systems there are mechanisms that will shuttle nutrients from one plant to another when there are nutrient surpluses. Clearly you missed a chapter on mycorrhizal symbiosis at Ye Old Vegetable Crop Department... Sorry that was mean, but it was so good that I have to post it anyway.

Here is a list of scholarly articles on the topic. Read them, I did, it was interesting.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...a=X&ei=5_oBVYf8MPDIsQTk9YH4BQ&ved=0CBwQgQMwAA

 

[thistlebloom]

[QUOTE="jasonvivier, post: 212106, Clearly you missed a chapter on mycorrhizal symbiosis at Ye Old Vegetable Crop Department... Sorry that was mean, but it was so good that I have to post it anyway.

Here is a list of scholarly articles on the topic. Read them, I did, it was interesting.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...a=X&ei=5_oBVYf8MPDIsQTk9YH4BQ&ved=0CBwQgQMwAA[/QUOTE]

I don't have a dog in this fight and have pretty much enjoyed the back and forth. But adding snark isn't going to change anybodies thinking Jason.

 

[ninnymary]

Can we just agree to disagree and move on?

Mary

 

[bobm]

I'm done in responding to a closed minded troll !!!!!!

 

[jasonvivier]

Can we just agree to disagree and move on?

Mary

No one actually has to come into the topic.