New corns of note

[ducks4you]

THIS is what I bought late last Fall from Gurney's.
Sugar Baby Hybrid Sweet Corn Seed (se)

Extra Sweet, Early Bicolor, 250 seeds.

• Early bicolor producer
• Tolerates cold conditions
• Ideal for short growing seasons
• Scrumptiously sweet flavor

A great way to start sweet corn season! This extra-early bicolor produces 8.5 in. ears with 12-16 rows of extra-sweet corn. It exhibits good cold tolerance, making it an ideal choice for areas with short growing seasons—or those gardeners who want to enjoy an early start to sweet corn season. Plant Sugar Baby Hybrid Sweet Corn seeds at the time of the last spring frost. While corn can stand a light frost, it cannot stand a heavy one. Because corn is wind-pollinated, plant several short rows instead of one long one. Plant seeds 10-12 in. apart in rows 30-36 in. apart. 65 DAYS. All Gurney's sweet corn seed is treated.

 

[ducks4you]

We USED to have a full service FS store that sold seeds in bulk. (They now only service farmers.)
You labeled a paper package, filled with how much you wanted, they weighed it and you bought it. The Best corn growing experience I have had was from this and they Also treated their corn kernels with this pink stuff. The seeds were 2 yrs old, too.
Funny, I JUST this morning moved my corn kernels from the packaging to a plastic, cleaned out applesauce container, clear, with the packaging rolled on the inside, so I can read it. I bought 750 kernels and will plant in 2 week succession, starting mid April.
I bit the bullet and bought a 30 ft row cover, that I MAY or may not need to use. I will be using the five 12 ft long tomato fencing from 2021 for my corn, so that I can tie the stalks to it. 3x last year a wind came along and knocked over my sweet corn.
Just a note: if you plant the 3 sisters method, DON'T plant pole beans. The corn simply cannot support the extra vining weight. There is plenty of room for squash and bush beans.
Since I will be planting next to supports, I INTEND to plant pole beans to the fencing...and pumpkins!
I have a LOT of saved pumpkin seeds, so I will be regretting how many sprout this year.

 

[Pulsegleaner]

Just a note: if you plant the 3 sisters method, DON'T plant pole beans. The corn simply cannot support the extra vining weight. There is plenty of room for squash and bush beans.

Hmm... I was always told you HAD to use pole beans, SO that they could twine up the stalks and cover them. Guess traditional Native American corns had stronger stalks than they do now (or pole beans have gotten more productive, and hence, heavier.)

Actually, if it was NEVER a good idea to use pole beans in a Three Sisters setup, why do we have so many pole beans in FIRST PLACE? You'd think if, you ALWAYS had to put up a separate support for pole beans, then you'd abandon them the moment you got a bush bean, which doesn't (usually). It seems to have happened to every OTHER leguminous crop where people had a choice (every tried finding a pole soybean? They exist, but they are really, really rare.)*

And, does it have to be corn, squash and beans exclusively? I know that is the traditional Native American plan (since it covered all the staples). But could one put any grain, legume, and cucurbit together. Since I don't eat many common beans, and don't like squash. I always toyed with combining corn, rice beans or azuki beans (both of which DO climb but are far smaller (and therefore lighter) than pole beans** and maybe watermelons. I think the interaction would probably be about the same. (Of course, first I have to figure out how to get the corn to live long enough to actually EXIST.)

*Cowpeas technically also still exist in both pole and bush form. However, based on what pictures I have seen of cowpea fields in Africa, they actually DO tend to go for bush types again And where pole types ARE still used, they are generally allowed to simply scramble over the field unsupported and then harvested en masse as a field crop. (like rice beans and azuki beans usually are)

** This assumes that the ONLY problem is the weight, as opposed to weight AND tension (i.e. that climbing beans don't actively PULL stalks down as they climb.)

 

[meadow]

However, based on what pictures I have seen of cowpea fields in Africa, they actually DO tend to go for bush types again And where pole types ARE still used, they are generally allowed to simply scramble over the field unsupported and then harvested en masse as a field crop. (like rice beans and azuki beans usually are)

Same for Rancho Gordo pictures of runner beans growing in Mexico. Judging by the beans that I received from them (RG), I'd hazard to guess that they are growing their pole beans without support in California too.

 

[Pulsegleaner]

Same for Rancho Gordo pictures of runner beans growing in Mexico. Judging by the beans that I received from them (RG), I'd hazard to guess that they are growing their pole beans without support in California too.

Well, to be fair, putting up support is a LOT of work, and you would have a strong incentive NOT to do it if you didn't have to.

Actually, I'm fairly sure that English peas (which as far as I know are ALWAYS vines)* were traditionally grown support free in the field as well, back when the soup pea was the standard pea. We probably only really started putting them on trellises when the snap and mange tout pea came along , and you had peas that no longer had enough parchment in their pods to keep them safe from pests if they were on the ground.

Now that I think of it, that could apply to beans as well. As long as beans were being grown only for seed and the pods were tough, letting them run along the ground was fine. But when snap beans came about, you suddenly had much softer, more pest vulnerable pods, and had to get them up in the air to protect them. And if the bean was a vine, that meant giving it something to climb on.

And in some cases, the transition would have probably taken a LOT of work. As far as I know, ALL, wild soybeans are climbing vines (mine certainly were). And I assume the wild ancestor of the Fava bean was also a vine (every OTHER species in the Vicia genus is)**

* If someone ever DID develop a true bush English pea, I imagine it would take the world by storm, and it and its decedents and derivatives would rapidly become the dominant peas of choice for large scale farmers.

** Way, way back in the past, in my college days I think I actually DID bump into two seeds of a wild fava bean (or, at least, and incredibly old and primitive one.) They were black, and about the size of B.B. pellets (but still had the classic "fava bean" seed shape) I DID try to grow them out, but one never germinated and a critter bit off the other one at the base.

 

[meadow]

Now that I think of it, that could apply to beans as well. As long as beans were being grown only for seed and the pods were tough, letting them run along the ground was fine. But when snap beans came about, you suddenly had much softer, more pest vulnerable pods, and had to get them up in the air to protect them. And if the bean was a vine, that meant giving it something to climb on.

That is an interesting theory; you may be on to something there.

I would also note that snap beans and snap peas require regular picking and, pests aside, convenience is a strong motivator.

 

[Pulsegleaner]

That is an interesting theory; you may be on to something there.

I would also note that snap beans and snap peas require regular picking and, pests aside, convenience is a strong motivator.

I'd almost wonder though, why then there aren't a fair number of climbing soybeans in those grown for edamame (the only climbing soybeans I know of as yet are some of the black ones I would get in bags in Chinatown [which could easily have simply been grown in field] and a mention of white ones being offered for deer forage). I can only assume that either they decided a bush was as good as a staked vine for keeping them off the ground, or else by the time soybeans were introduced to Japan, they were already all bush*

And then there is the matter of lablabs, where there ARE bush ones (@Zeedman has one) but vines still dominate. My best guess there is that it's because the number of places where lablabs are eaten young as a vegetable FAR outnumber the number of places that eat the mature seed (since most mature lablabs have so many toxins in them you have to leach them to make them edible.)

* Wild soybeans ARE native to Japan (I know because I have a Japanese field guide to wild plants, and they're in there.) But I think the eating kind was introduced, from either China or Korea.

 

[ducks4you]

Well, to be fair, putting up support is a LOT of work, and you would have a strong incentive NOT to do it if you didn't have to.

TELL ME ABOUT IT!!!
It took me 35 hours to assemble the five 12 ft fencing last year.
THAT is why I wanted to use it again This year, and I am SURE that I will think of yet aNOTHER use for it next year.
I am saving up to buy enough 6 ft high livestock fencing to use for tomatoes in 2022. I have enough metal fenceposts, or can buy a few more. My plan is for four 12 ft long tomato fencing, south side of the garage bed, now a dedicated garden bed bc I keep growing there and, as DH pointed out, I made a brick border for it last year. It's about 6 ft wide, 30 ft long, big enough for my purpose.
This is a Great time to assess what worked last year and what went wrong. The corn was blown over 3x in 2021 by strong winds. THIS year I will be tying the stalks to the fencing, and each fenceline will have a row of corn on the north side of it and a row of corn on the south side of it.
Don't think I will use ALL 750 seeds this year, but, as I said before, the viability of Good sweet corn seed may be pretty high.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I'll give my take on the Three Sisters method. First, these crops were not necessarily for fresh eating. Food should be plentiful during the growing season. Winter is the hunger season, so these would have been mostly stored for eating in winter. The different Native American tribes had their own traditions and I'd imagine different villages or towns would put their own twist on how things were done. I've read stories where the "adults" would leave the village after the crop was planted and hunt and gather for the good weather season, leaving the young and elderly to care for the crops and protect them from raccoons, deer, and other critters.

These crops were grown across the continent in greatly different climates. I doubt the Hopi of the southwest used the same planting techniques as the Iroquois of the eastern great lakes region. I'd imagine certain varieties of corn, beans, and squash suited to their region and methods were used. The corn would be one that was used dried, often ground, and the stalks would be strong enough to support the beans. The beans would be for dried use, no snap beans. The growth habit of the beans would be so they did not overwhelm the corn, many of us know that some bean vines grow thicker or more vigorously than others. The squash or pumpkin would be a winter squash, suitable for storage. None of these would be harvested until they matured.

There would be competition between the Sisters for nutrients, water, and sunlight. I don't see this method as a way to maximize the yield of the crops, more of a method that suited their lifestyle. Each region would have their own way of planting. I could envision some with plenty of water planting a center of corn, maybe not that thick or many plants. The beans maybe more around the outside of that corn patch so they could get enough sun to climb. Not as many bean plants as corn plants. The beans would climb so they were not overshadowed by the squash and starved of sunlight. Probably a few squash planted on the outskirts with plenty of room to run. The squash's main contribution to the method is that it acts like a mulch, keeping weeds down and conserving moisture but they need sunlight as they come up. You'd weed the field as the squash started to spread and it would be "laid by" until harvest. In drier regions they may not be grown together but each in their separate field. I'm not sure how well the watermelon I've grown would work, the leaves and vines weren't thick enough to make a good mulch. The watermelon would be for fresh eating, they don't store very well, but they might be harvested after the corn and beans were ready.

There would be a specific time to plant them. I'd expect the corn to go first so it's a certain height so the beans have something to climb when they are planted. The squash would come last so the beans can start climbing before the squash shaded them out. Not every climate would be suited to starting the seeds this way.

The Three Sisters method is often associated with the Iroquois. Not all of us have the Iroquois climate, I don't know the varieties they used, I don't know their planting methods, or their timing of planting. I don't want to grow dried corn to be harvested at the end of the season, much prefer sweet corn to be eaten fresh. When I tried the method in Arkansas I did everything wrong. I planted a SE hybrid corn, the stalks broke down at harvest or soon after. I planted snap beans. When I harvested them and the sweet corn I damaged the squash vines, mostly by stepping on them. I had too many bean and squash plants. I never tried it again.

 

[Pulsegleaner]

I seem to recall reading a message from an elder of the Abenaki (I think) about how they use the SEVEN sisters method, integrating ALL of their major crops.

The watermelon thing was just me thinking, it is not set in stone. It's just that, when push comes to shove, the only cucurbits I usually EAT (and therefore grow) are watermelons and cucumbers. Cucumbers won't work, because they're too soft to let lie on the ground, so they'd just climb up the cornstalks and make the weight problem worse. Kiwanos (horned melons) would probably work (they let them grow on the ground in Africa) but I don't know if they will come to full season here (a lot of seed sellers from all over sell them, so I THINK they do, but am not sure). Winter melon/hairy melon would be great, but I KNOW that doesn't come to term here (at least, not anyone I have encountered yet). Luffas need to climb. And all the other odd cucurbits I have are fully tropical (and often polyannual) so they're no good.