A Seed Saver's Garden

[heirloomgal]

I'm a little lost, as how my post could be so misconstrued as to imply that seed saving & preservation is a form of unethical coercion. Seed saving is purely voluntary, and I can't see how efforts to preserve diversity in food plants could "be seen as horrifically criminally evil if viewed from a slightly different viewpoint". There are zealots within the movement, as there are within any topic where fame or a book deal can be used to personal advantage... but those efforts do no harm, and no one is forcing people to grow something against their will.

It is a tragedy that expressly because seed saving is voluntary, and because too many eggs are often held in a single precarious basket, that many unique varieties are continuously being lost to extinction. What happened to Glen's sweet potato collection is an example of how vulnerable some varieties are. Government seed banks, and NGOs like SSE, can't save them all. The question of whether we should save them all involves the value we place on any unique life form, and what their loss could mean for the future.

Where I do see harm being done is when a region or ethnicity claims exclusive ownership of a food plant, and uses the power of force (law) to prevent others from growing it. That is no different philosophically than patenting a food plant, and punishing those who grow it without permission. IMO anything which restricts the rights of others to grow & eat the food of their choice is unethical.

"After all the most efficient way and place of keeping a variety around is in it's place of origin. But what happens if no one there wants to keep growing it."

There is no denying that the best way of preserving an heirloom, is to continue growing it at its source. But what happens when the children either move away, or choose not to grow it? At that point, there are really two choices: abandon it to extinction, or preserve it elsewhere. Forcing people to grow it at its point of origin is an option being proposed by no one. The philosophy of seed saving is that while the present generation doesn't choose to grow something, their children - or others - may choose differently. It's about preserving that choice, not eliminating it.

In many ways, the seed saving movement is a response to coercion. The power of governments & corporations has been used to force heirloom varieties out of commerce, at the expense of traditional varieties grown for generations. Just because something is not suitable for large scale cultivation - or doesn't generate huge profits for seed companies - doesn't make it worthless. To the contrary, as many gardeners know, many of the varieties rejected by commercial agriculture are not only well suited to garden culture, but may be more flavorful & nutritious when carried straight from garden to table.

It is impressive how deeply you think these topics through @Zeedman. Many of your posts here on TEG have given me perspectives I never thought of before, and information totally new to me. I had no idea there existed regions claiming ownership of food plants. Wow. I think you've travelled much more extensively than I have, and you've gardened for many more years than I, so it makes sense that you have all this knowledge.

The thing about heirlooms (old OP's I guess) being kept where they develop, for someone like me in a northern climate in a country where much of the land is uninhabited due to permafrost and an inability to grow food, we wouldn't be eating much without moving them around! Most of the vegetables I eat regularly are from very far away; carrots, cucumbers, tomatoes, all the herbs. Lots. I did read once about how varieties are inclined to change expression due to being grown in new climates and pressures, but I see that as just how nature operates. It is the nature of the sands of time to shift.

The philosophy of seed saving is that while the present generation doesn't choose to grow something, their children - or others - may choose differently. It's about preserving that choice, not eliminating it.

Yes, that's something I hadn't thought out so clearly. Especially considering that one of my seed saving intentions was as an inheritance for my children. They can bring the seeds wherever they settle with their own families someday.

as many gardeners know, many of the varieties rejected by commercial agriculture are not only well suited to garden culture, but may be more flavorful & nutritious when carried straight from garden to table.

Yes, yes, yes! To me this is a HUGE motivating factor! While I do appreciate commercial agriculture and the food security that goes with it on certain levels, I also think to rely on commercial interests to grow all our food puts us, of course, in a vulnerable position. That is such a huge topic, but after having worked with several people who had escaped the collapse of their country in Europe during the 90's, it was eye opening to hear their stories of having lived with no real functioning food stores. Things can get unglued in a country pretty fast under certain circumstances, and gardening skills in that context are survival skills. Seeds are really a kind of freedom.

 

[heirloomgal]

I don't think that ANY seed company I have bought from recently--High Mowing, Jung, Burpee--really care if I save any seeds from my harvest of seeds I have brought from them.

True! Actually a greenhouse owner nearby that I chat with occasionally has been trying out different seed companies over the last 5 years for his seed racks. He has probably went through about 4 different brands, and finally settled on one. He told me that he doesn't want seed packets with lots of seed, it's bad for business. He specifically chose a seed company that puts only a tiny amount in the packet and also has a glossy window, which decrease seed viability over time. There was definitely a conscious effort on his part to NOT have people save their own seeds, or even keep a single packet year to year. He wants people to come back each spring for new seed! I understand his point of view, BUT! almost all the seeds he sells are OP so if one is inclined they can buy once, and have them indefinitely. So it really could go either way.

 

[heirloomgal]

This was a new kind of seed packet to find in the seed mail. First time ordering from them, and was impressed with their attention to details . Usually it's just a paper envelope. This one came with a garden tag, UV resistant seed package and zipper top. That has always been a question in my mind, how to package seeds simply yet not have people left with a ripped, wrecked packet. If you use all the seed it doesn't really matter, but with tomatoes and peppers that isn't always gonna happen. I started with small plastic envelopes slipped inside cardstock DIY envelopes, sealed with colourful washi tape. You could peel the washi tape on and off quite a bit before it lost it's stickiness. But it looked a little too DIY to me. Now I use plastic 3X4 ziploc sealers with a colour printed label slipped inside, and I tend to keep only a small amount of seed packaged, with most seeds stored in bulk. For selling I like this method because people can flip the packet over and see (and count) the seeds for themselves. Not great for long terms storage though.

Sart Roloise. Looking forward to trying this tomato.

 

[flowerbug]

@Zeedman a wonderfully well thought reply there, i'm going to talk about a few possible tangents. one which we know already happens and the other a very remote possibility. currently there are some crops i will not grow here due to animal predation but also because of genetic tinkering that has gone on. i don't wish to grow things i have to erect a fortress to defend against the animals (raccoons love corn - we have a lot of raccoons around all the time) but even if i did get the fences up that were good enough to keep them out (plus they would have to be electrified to keep them from climbing over) i cannot stop the wind or other pollination sources from contaminating a corn i would grow from the surrounding fields. the same goes for soybeans, alfalfa and other GMO modified plants that have had their germ line altered.

setting that aside, a consideration for the future, perhaps we find out that some seed lines are harboring negative traits that should not be passed along to any offspring at all? somehow perhaps someone selects such a narrow number of seeds or there isn't much diversity or disease wipes out all but an isolated population. you hope that the future would allow for us to fix such problems somehow, but until then sometimes perhaps the best thing to do is to not plant. very remote considerations, but things to think about.

in terms of diversity and requiring that people near a place be allowed to use it, well sure, but if their use is destructive then it has to be regulated. that is what so much of the world is currently struggling with due to population increases and needs for more food and water but also the destruction from wars, corrupt governments, corporations that have no ethics at all and even the animals themselves that are limited to where they can go and what they can eat because their wider range or habitat has been destroyed. if we don't regulate and limit there will be a certain loss of diversity and eventually the whole area is altered. having seen many restoration projects attempted and then destroyed by subsequent upheavals or poaching or raids or fires or droughts or ... well the world is a tough place to be these days. IMO we certainly need to back off our population and destructive tendencies. this requires regulations and people who aren't corrupt or easily moved.

at the same time there are people who can genuinely increase diversity and improve places in the world and they should be encouraged and emulated as much as possible while there is such diversity available (because recreating organisms is still going to be a major undertaking for the foreseaable short term).

seed saving, seed vaults, germ plasm storage, for both plants and animals is critical right now. as much as we can preserve in multiple places is very important.

my own beans, peas, squashes, onions and garlic are pretty much going to keep being planted and worked on by me as long as i am able. i do it because it is fun and interesting and also the best form of exercise with meaning i can figure out.

 

[Zeedman]

This was a new kind of seed packet to find in the seed mail. First time ordering from them, and was impressed with their attention to details . Usually it's just a paper envelope. This one came with a garden tag, UV resistant seed package and zipper top. That has always been a question in my mind, how to package seeds simply yet not have people left with a ripped, wrecked packet. If you use all the seed it doesn't really matter, but with tomatoes and peppers that isn't always gonna happen. I started with small plastic envelopes slipped inside cardstock DIY envelopes, sealed with colourful washi tape. You could peel the washi tape on and off quite a bit before it lost it's stickiness. But it looked a little too DIY to me. Now I use plastic 3X4 ziploc sealers with a colour printed label slipped inside, and I tend to keep only a small amount of seed packaged, with most seeds stored in bulk. For selling I like this method because people can flip the packet over and see (and count) the seeds for themselves. Not great for long terms storage though.

Very nice packaging, that company takes the quality of their seeds seriously.

 

[flowerbug]

i decided to use small sample cups for seed saving because they seal well enough to not come open again and also that they can have clear tops so you can see in them without having to open them up. they stack together so they don't take up a large amount of space to store a few thousand of them at once. the other thing i do like about them is that when i'm sorting i can have a few dozen right there and i'm able to put the selections in their own little cup right then. envelopes would need another step, but i'm sure that could be widgeted somehow so it would not be too clumsy.

paper envelopes would be my preference in terms of being able to compost them, but you can't see through them and have to open them.

the tiny plastic ziplock envelopes are nice if you get the thicker ones that don't rip as easily.

i was trying to think of a way to use some kind of glass container that could also stack together, perhaps thin and hexagon shaped but you also need a top for them and that adds complications that paper and the ziplock plastic ones don't have. the plastic sample cups do work but they do take up more space than i'd like. when i get done with my current supply of sample cups i'll switch over to something else, but i'll likley have some around all the time just because they do make sorting and selecting much easier.

 

[Zeedman]

Sample cups - I like that idea. Reusable, stackable, and probably seal well enough to keep out humidity... given that they are designed to keep "humidity" in.

 

[flowerbug]

Sample cups - I like that idea. Reusable, stackable, and probably seal well enough to keep out humidity... given that they are designed to keep "humidity" in.

i think @bluejays77 ziplock heavy mil envelopes work much better for space utilization and i will likely switch to those eventually. reopening them if your hands are screwed up could become a challenge. we've had some boxes of ziplock freezer bags become really difficult this past round of purchases but i'm hoping that is only a temporary issue with this specific batch. they're so hard to open that you often end up ripping the end off the bag.

originally i was saving the sample cups they were handing out at the big box stores (including rescuing from trash cans nearby if they weren't too heavily contaminated) and had several hundred in use but as time went on i was getting too many different kinds where the lids and cups were not all compatible so that was the reason i ended up just spending some $ and buying a huge box of lids and cups all at once. so now all the odd sizes get used for planting and sorting and then when they get too old and start cracking or get abused too much then they end up in the recycle bin.

my overall efforts are geared towards limiting how much space i need to use to store things. i'm due for some reorge work and cleaning the next few weeks now that the weather is getting cold enough to be inside plus i'm done with the dusty part of bean sorting so i have no more excuses. gotta get the floor dusted and also some of the bookshelves that take collateral damage.

 

[Zeedman]

originally i was saving the sample cups they were handing out at the big box stores (including rescuing from trash cans nearby if they weren't too heavily contaminated) and had several hundred in use but as time went on i was getting too many different kinds where the lids and cups were not all compatible so that was the reason i ended up just spending some $ and buying a huge box of lids and cups all at once. so now all the odd sizes get used for planting and sorting and then when they get too old and start cracking or get abused too much then they end up in the recycle bin.

Oh, you meant food sample cups. My bad, my mind was still in medical mode.

i think @bluejays77 ziplock heavy mil envelopes work much better for space utilization and i will likely switch to those eventually. reopening them if your hands are screwed up could become a challenge. we've had some boxes of ziplock freezer bags become really difficult this past round of purchases but i'm hoping that is only a temporary issue with this specific batch. they're so hard to open that you often end up ripping the end off the bag.

I use heavy-duty zippered freezer bags for seeds as well. If that definition seems a little vague, it's because I'm trying to avoid the Zip- term, because I've found that brand to be problematic... the seals failed unexpectedly several times, dumping all of the beans within (!!!!). After 3-4 times gathering up several pounds of spilled beans, I stopped using them. The Hefty bags have a stronger seal, and a flat bottom which allows them to stand up - so less chance of spilling, if you want to remove some seeds later.

 

[Marie2020]

I posted the recipe in a thread called 'For Those Who Detest Kale'

I hope too find this soon