A Seed Saver's Garden

[heirloomgal]

I also started saving seeds this year, and may I ask some questions about seed saving here in your thread? Thanks in advance.

First, about tomatoes, do you always ferment the seeds first? I know why it is suggested to do so, but not sure if it is 100% necessary.

The second is still about fermentation - is it also necessary to do this for eggplants and squashes? This is my first-time saving eggplant seeds, which are pretty clean compared to tomato seeds. I never fermented squash seeds in the past, but they hardly failed.

The last question is about the "slightly" damaged seeds, especially for beans. I collected a lot of field bean seeds this year, some of which are slightly damaged by the worms. I also did some research and realized those damaged ones can still germinate but might have a weaker growth later. What is your experience with this? I mean, will the plant robustness be influenced that much?

Much appreciated.

I love talking seeds @Phaedra Geiermann !

Personally, I always ferment my tomato seeds. But it isn't absolutely necessary, many people just smear some seedy gel across a piece of paper instead and let it dry.

You don't need to ferment eggplants or squash seeds either. The fermenting methods tend to be for any seeds that have a slimy, germination inhibitor sac surrounding them. Cucumber seeds do well with fermenting, for example, and it's harder to collect the individual seeds if you don't ferment, but still not required.

As for the beans, I don't have any experience with worm damage to field bean seeds. But I would guess what you've researched is correct. Anything that might diminish or compromise the seed embryo would likely show itself as the plant grows. It might be a good experiment to try and see if you notice a difference. In the case of eggplant seeds, when I grated mine this time around and decanted with water, some seeds were floating on top the water that looked fine, but because they floated and didn't sink I poured them off anyway. Probably the insides were not fully developed.

 

[heirloomgal]

@heirloomgal IS the expert, here, but I will chime in. YES, you have to ferment tomato seeds. I did that last year, I am harvesting from the tomato plants that grew from those seeds. I swear that every seed planted sprouted bc I treated the seeds correctly.
I live in a very humid climate and, after fermentation and rinsing I dried my Cherokee Purple tomato seeds for a good 3 months before storage. They have to be thoroughly dry.
ALL of my research suggests that yes, again, you must ferment squash seeds, and thoroughly dry them out for any yield.
I did, however, pour out pumpkin seeds that I had simply dried out and Didn't, in the sweet potato bed that I planted in several weeks ago. I am not looking for a harvest from them, simply to fill in and suppress weeds. They are thriving.
You can get enough squash/melon seeds, IMHO, from a single fruit.

Yes, you probably got such good germination from fermenting! Not only does the seed store better, but you pour off any nonviable seeds with the guck. So no inadvertent planting of bad seed. Also, the germination inhibitor that sticks to the seed ferments off so your sprouting strength is much improved. Win, win!

 

[Pulsegleaner]

First cuke of the season!

Yes, you probably got such good germination from fermenting! Not only does the seed store better, but you pour off any nonviable seeds with the guck. So no inadvertent planting of bad seed. Also, the germination inhibitor that sticks to the seed ferments off so your sprouting strength is much improved. Win, win!

It sort of depends. One big problem I have with the fermenting thing is that you have to usually use the whole tomato for it, so, in a situation like mine it becomes a choice of get seed or get to actually eat some of my veggies (it also makes deciding what is worth growing again the next year hard.) . I can, of course, sometimes split the tomato in half (if it's large enough) and any that go bad before I get to eat them go into the seed saving pool.

Every now and then also, I get one that is basically unfermentable. I suspect Drywall (that gel-less cottony fleshed white cherry tomato I found) would be hard to ferment, as I doubt it has enough sugars to support much of a bacteria/yeast population (it would almost be like trying to ferment a piece of paper, you could do it theoretically, but it would take a VERY long time.) In fact the water bath I added to that one was less about giving it time to ferment and more about trying to get the seeds off my fingers!

BTW quick question. I appears that the one fruit on my surviving Darkest Night (that ultra-black tomato I found). has gotten BER. I'm not planning to remove it (since it is currently the only one there) and, when it is ready, I'll simply cut the bad part out. I assume that is OK. I mean, I'm fairly sure that the seeds in the non-rotted bit will be fine, but I want to double check that any tomato tissue that still looks good is still edible, so I can test in and find out what it actually tastes like (the original fruit went bad before I got around to eating any of it, so the taste is still and unknown.)

 

[flowerbug]

...
BTW quick question. I appears that the one fruit on my surviving Darkest Night (that ultra-black tomato I found). has gotten BER. I'm not planning to remove it (since it is currently the only one there) and, when it is ready, I'll simply cut the bad part out. I assume that is OK. I mean, I'm fairly sure that the seeds in the non-rotted bit will be fine, but I want to double check that any tomato tissue that still looks good is still edible, so I can test in and find out what it actually tastes like (the original fruit went bad before I got around to eating any of it, so the taste is still and unknown.)

i use my nose to tell if parts of a tomato are good or not, but usually a really bad BER means most of the tomato won't be worth bothering with. seed saving from such a tomato would be ok if you take seeds from away from be BER'd areas.

 

[Pulsegleaner]

i use my nose to tell if parts of a tomato are good or not, but usually a really bad BER means most of the tomato won't be worth bothering with. seed saving from such a tomato would be ok if you take seeds from away from be BER'd areas.

Which is precisely what I plan to do, I'm not dumb enough to try and take see from the rotten part (it'd probably be rotten itself anyway).

The only conundrum I have is what to do if another tomato starts on the plant, since I assume that, even if it is environmentally induced, BER has some sort of fungus or bacteria involved, and, as such, is contagious on a plant. I suppose I have to hope that, if another fruit starts, the first one is far enough along I can pick it and still get good seed out of it (I am aware there are ways to germinate underripe seed, but most require care tools I do not have available. If I am to save seed from a tomato, it has to be ripe enough I can stand standard fermentation and drying down for overwinter storage, same as any other.)

 

[Pulsegleaner]

I finally went out and actually LOOKED at the tomato in question. and while it does indeed seem to have BER, the good news is that the rotten part appears to have suberized, so it won't get any farther up the fruit.


Also, despite what I said earlier, it appears this plant DOES have the purple skin gene, as the entire top of the tomato has a deep purple cast (I probably should have guessed when the plant came up, its stem is more or less so purple you can't see the green anymore.)

Also, it looks like, while still lagging behind dramatically, a few of the tomatoes in the actual tomato pot are large enough at this point that they could theoretically be able to make fruit by year's end.

Most of the herbs are looking better as well, the cat thyme is about the size it was last year now, and both rosemary look decent. The Cuban Oregano looks a little bigger as well (though not nearly so huge that I can start harvesting it with impunity.)

And on the other side, the mystery tomatoes now have some fruits as well. So I now know they are cherries, though not what kind or color yet. When they go shiny, I'll have to remember to actually touch them occasionally (three years ago, I almost lost my entire production from my one and only plant by waiting for them to turn color, until I actually touched one and realized it was a green when ripe cherry tomato and several had been ripe for weeks!)

There are a few tomato like seedlings showing up as well in the other side pot, the one with the prairie senna. I didn't plant any tomatoes there, but I DID put in some Andean potato seed, so maybe those are that.

I thought the left barrel was now totally devoid of anything I planted, but it looks like one plant is actually still there inside (probably the mothe bean.)

The Lablabs are growing like CRAZY in this hot weather. Let's just hope the days here reach an appropriate level for their flowering before the frosts come ( I know you can "fake out" plants to get them to bloom early, but knowing how long to put on the cloth would require knowing the type of lablabs I have, which I don't).

 

[heirloomgal]

First cuke of the season!

View attachment 51570



It sort of depends. One big problem I have with the fermenting thing is that you have to usually use the whole tomato for it, so, in a situation like mine it becomes a choice of get seed or get to actually eat some of my veggies (it also makes deciding what is worth growing again the next year hard.) . I can, of course, sometimes split the tomato in half (if it's large enough) and any that go bad before I get to eat them go into the seed saving pool.

Every now and then also, I get one that is basically unfermentable. I suspect Drywall (that gel-less cottony fleshed white cherry tomato I found) would be hard to ferment, as I doubt it has enough sugars to support much of a bacteria/yeast population (it would almost be like trying to ferment a piece of paper, you could do it theoretically, but it would take a VERY long time.) In fact the water bath I added to that one was less about giving it time to ferment and more about trying to get the seeds off my fingers!

BTW quick question. I appears that the one fruit on my surviving Darkest Night (that ultra-black tomato I found). has gotten BER. I'm not planning to remove it (since it is currently the only one there) and, when it is ready, I'll simply cut the bad part out. I assume that is OK. I mean, I'm fairly sure that the seeds in the non-rotted bit will be fine, but I want to double check that any tomato tissue that still looks good is still edible, so I can test in and find out what it actually tastes like (the original fruit went bad before I got around to eating any of it, so the taste is still and unknown.)

Yeah, that is definitely one of the downsides - sometimes the whole fruit/vegetable has to be sacrificed to get the seeds. Peppers a notable exception, and paste tomatoes are much easier to get seed from and keep the rest of the flesh. Often, I'll make tomato, cheese, mayo sandwiches for all of us and whatever of the tomato is left I save the seeds from that as I don't care for cut tomatoes that've been left out. Tonight's beefsteak was May's Green Pineapple (DIVINE) and I'll get the leftover seeds tomorrow. I did the same with my Black From Tula.

Also, to get good quality seeds things are often considerably past prime, eggplants and cukes in particular. So, either way you don't get to eat them!

I think you're all good to collect seeds from your BER affected tomato; it is caused by a calcium deficiency (often brought on by a dry spell where water is unable to deliver the calcium) so no worries about pathogens. The seed will not be compromised because of BER.

 

[heirloomgal]

When they go shiny, I'll have to remember to actually touch them occasionally (three years ago, I almost lost my entire production from my one and only plant by waiting for them to turn color, until I actually touched one and realized it was a green when ripe cherry tomato and several had been ripe for weeks!)

Yikes!

But I've had that happen too with odd coloured tomatoes I'm growing for the first time!

Andean potato seed? As in, seed potato or seeds collected from an Andean potato plant? Just curious

Lablabs.....I need to try these again. I failed my first time, mostly through inexperience, and hung on to the feeling 'I do badly with those'. I sholud get on the horse again.

 

[Pulsegleaner]

Yeah, that is definitely one of the downsides - sometimes the whole fruit/vegetable has to be sacrificed to get the seeds. Peppers a notable exception, and paste tomatoes are much easier to get seed from and keep the rest of the flesh. Often, I'll make tomato, cheese, mayo sandwiches for all of us and whatever of the tomato is left I save the seeds from that as I don't care for cut tomatoes that've been left out. Tonight's beefsteak was May's Green Pineapple (DIVINE) and I'll get the leftover seeds from the leftover tomorrow. I did the same with my Black From Tula.

Also, to get good quality seeds things are often considerably past prime, eggplants and cukes in particular. So, either way you don't get to eat them!

I think you're all good to collect seeds from your BER affected tomato; it is caused by a calcium deficiency (often brought on by a dry spell where water is unable to deliver the calcium) so no worries about pathogens. The seed will not be compromised because of BER.

Actually, I'm quite good a simply excising all of the gel from a normal tomato for seed saving and preserving the flesh intact for consumption. And, as far as I can tell, there is sufficient sugars in the gel alone to enable normal fermentation. It's just you can't really get the full flavor of a tomato without tasting the gel as well. And, while I am well aware that tomato seeds pass undigested through the human body, any method of retrieving them THAT way would be too disgusting to even contemplate, and I would only do in truly desperate circumstances (for example, with a tomato the breeder was handing out samples of, but was not planning to ever share seeds of, like some of Tom Wagner's stuff.)

With cukes, there is actually a middle ground where the seeds are ready but you can still eat some of it. You just scoop out the jelly in the middle to get the seeds, and eat the fleshy part. It's not as moist as a full slice (and, for a few types you lose a little flavor that exists only in the jelly) But it's still perfectly good for things like cold soups, pickles, and sushi if you make that (you don't use the jelly part in a kappamaki anyway.)

Eggplants, I agree, those are a one or the other choice. Peas too (unless you want to eat them as soup peas.) And for things like lablabs, you REALLY have to make the choice early, since by the time the seeds are mature, they're not only no longer tasty, they're poisonous! (well, some kinds are).

And you are right, we DID have a long dry spell this year, so that would explain it.

Yikes!

But I've had that happen too with odd coloured tomatoes I'm growing for the first time!

Andean potato seed? As in, seed potato or seeds collected from an Andean potato plant? Just curious

Lablabs.....I need to try these again. I failed my first time, mostly through inexperience, and hung on to the feeling 'I do badly with those'. I sholud get on the horse again.

Actual potato seeds, from a type called Chuchipa Ismaynin. It's supposed to be small, long, bright magenta skinned and very bumpy. I got them from Trade Winds Fruit (I just checked there though, and they are now out of stock).

Not that I have a great track record with growing potatoes from actual seed. The last time I tried, with some kind I got from Sacred Succulents, I DID get a plant, which DID flower and make a fresh berry (which I later lost, as once dried it became exceedingly tiny and fell off my dresser onto my floor where I couldn't find it.) but produced no tubers. And the time BEFORE that, when I was using one of Tom Wagner's Andean species potato seed mixes, the only plant that went past the itty bitty stage was, as far as I can tell, not a potato at all, but some kind of other nightshade (looked sort of like American Nightshade, except the flowers were a little flatter and the berries ripened to bronze instead of black. I still have the seed and may someday re-plant some (to sort it out if nothing else, while in my drawer the packet leaked and the seed got mixed with some for some sort of wild husk tomato, and I can't tell one from the other by seed alone.)

The real problem you are going to have with lablabs is the same one I am having, most of them will not flower in our latitude and day lengths. Over here, you are generally limited to only a few that will work (Ruby Moon will, as will the white flowered bush version @Zeedman grows.) That's WHY I'm doing these experiments, to see if I can find any others. But the number of kinds out there are bewildering (and that's not factoring in the fact that nearly all of the stuff I can get is from the Asian gene pool alone, there is an additional equally large gene pool in Africa, same as with cowpeas. (the kinds grown in the US are generally from the African pool, since they came along with the slaves. The Asian pool is where things like the yard long bean fit.)

 

[heirloomgal]

And, while I am well aware that tomato seeds pass undigested through the human body, any method of retrieving them THAT way would be too disgusting to even contemplate, and I would only do in truly desperate circumstances

I don't know why, but this just makes me. But I fully agree, desperate situation only.

I envy your adaptability with veggie tastes and textures. I'm fussy. Thinks like cukes gotta be spot on where I like them, very young. Tomatoes the opposite. The knife has to melt through it, no resistance. Oh, tried my first Sart Roloise. Juicy & delicious.